Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

590 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, scook17 said:

 

Going to look at a few bikes tomorrow, e.g. a 500cc model. This is 4.6 to 3.9L / 100Km.

4L per 100km, is 1L per 25KM. At current rates, 2 Euros or so.

Shame there are not much progress in electric motorbikes yet. I wonder when they will come?

 

ICE motorbikes bad fuel economy is a combination of several factors, the aerodynamics are very bad (drag factor is sometimes double than a car, even if the front is much smaller), the weight (bike + rider) is high relative to the engine displacement, braking energy is wasted.  And bikes efficiency is a lose-lose game, if you go fast you lose because the drag increases much more at higher speeds and if you go slow then the engine efficiency is bad.

 

If you want a better fuel efficiency you should check those three-wheeled bikes with a cabin enclosure.  But they are super boring.

 

And about electric motorbikes, there are already plenty of them, but they are still expensive and their range is not that good.  They will be good city commuters but horrible for traveling long distances.

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4 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

ICE motorbikes bad fuel economy is a combination of several factors, the aerodynamics are very bad (drag factor is sometimes double than a car, even if the front is much smaller), the weight (bike + rider) is high relative to the engine displacement, braking energy is wasted.  And bikes efficiency is a lose-lose game, if you go fast you lose because the drag increases much more at higher speeds and if you go slow then the engine efficiency is bad.

 

I guess it all depends what you think is bad fuel economy, I regard 80 odd mpg to be absolutely fantastic compared to even a small ice economy 4 wheeler and a 500 cc bike should give you Porsche performance from 0-100 kph due to a power to weight ratio that is way beyond almost everything on 4 wheels. For sure electric motorbikes could be much cheaper to run but I doubt they can do much better performance wise, tyre traction and keeping the front wheel down might be a problem, having said that they got one to do a 100mph lap in the Isle of Man, albeit the race was only for 1 lap (37 miles) I believe.

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2 hours ago, CincyInDE said:

Here's a good explanation for the slow uptake of e-motorcycles. Tldr: it's a combination of factors.

https://youtu.be/O2zlYpy6QCM

 

Fun to watch. Loved his home made bike conversion.

 

Summary, buy a scooter. So I looked up vespa and ...

https://www.vespa.com/en_EN/models/elettrica/

I am sure there are more and soon we'll be flooded with these coming in from China.

 

But I don't want a scooter.

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The Harley-Davidson LiveWire is pretty cool but too expensive. 

 

Quote

The Harley-Davidson LiveWire is an electric motorcycle by Harley-Davidson, their first electric vehicle. Harley-Davidson says the maximum speed is 95 mph (153 km/h)[4] with claimed 105 hp (78 kW) motor.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiveWire_(motorcycle)

 

There's an amazing documentary called Long Way Up starring Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman using:Harley-Davidson LiveWire motorcyles:

 

Quote

Long Way Up is a British television series which debuted 18 September 2020, documenting a motorcycle journey undertaken in 2019 by Ewan McGregor and Charley Boorman, from Ushuaia in Argentina through South and Central America to Los Angeles in the United States.

...

The journey covered 13,000 miles, through 13 countries over 100 days starting in September 2019 and finishing on 14 December 2019. They rode Harley-Davidson LiveWire electric motorcycles manufactured by Harley-Davidson that had been converted into adventure bikes.

 

Accompanying Ewan and Charley are the same key team members from Long Way Round and Long Way Down, including director/producers David Alexanian and Russ Malkin and directors of photography Jimmy Simak and Claudio Von Planta. Also joining is associate producer Taylor Estevez and cinematographer Anthony Von Seck.

 

The production team followed Ewan and Charley’s route in prototype Rivian electric trucks built especially for the journey.[3] They were supported by diesel powered vehicles and generators and back up bikes.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Way_Up

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3 hours ago, CincyInDE said:

Here's a good explanation for the slow uptake of e-motorcycles. Tldr: it's a combination of factors.

 

https://youtu.be/O2zlYpy6QCM

 

 

 

In my opinion the real problem is the price followed by the limitations.  EVs are more expensive than ICE cars but not by much and you have the government subsidies hiding the difference a bit.   But in e-Motorbikes the difference is abysmal.

 

Right now there is a boom of 125cc motorbikes in Germany due to the introduction of the B196 license extension.  Those bikes are very affordable and really good as a city commuter.   You can buy 125cc bikes brand new from 3000 to 5000 EUR, and the manufactures really read the market properly this time and they are making all kind of cool bikes.  For example there is a Kawasaki Ninja 125cc, it is gorgeous, and below 5000 EUR brand new.   Electric motorbikes can't compite with that, a decent one will cost around 12000 EUR and it will come with all the limitations they have, mostly crappy range.   Making them only city commuters, and plenty of hobby riders want to do one or two 200-300 km round during the weekend, which they can't do without stopping to charge and leaving you stranded from your pack.  Riding with friends is very important for hobby bikers, it is extremely boring to ride big rounds alone.

 

I and my kids are into Motocross, and you might think that would be a better market for e-Motorbikes, but no, the way e-Motorbikes ride, the different center of mass, the permanent-powerband, etc make them totally different from normal bikes and we do not want that change.  They are fun, yes, but it becomes a different sport.  Plus all the fun last one hour and we have no plugs in our MX clubs to charge them.

 

That leaves as only realistic choice all the Chinese and Euro-Start-Up choices, there are actually some interesting options, but it is risky to invest so much money in a company that could not exist next year.   For three years I've been very close to buy a Sur Ron Firefly as a city commuter and for fun, but every year I decide to wait.  Maybe I will get one in a couple of years when my first kid is on age to get a license.

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14 hours ago, fraufruit said:

30 states in the U.S. are charging extra road tax for EV's and hybrids already.

 

here

 

Well, that does make a certain amount of sense. The road network has to be paid for somehow. If rich people with EV's get to avoid this then it will be the poor picking up the tab by paying more at the pump.

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30 minutes ago, theGman said:

 

Well, that does make a certain amount of sense. The road network has to be paid for somehow. If rich people with EV's get to avoid this then it will be the poor picking up the tab by paying more at the pump.

 

Interesting except for all the rich people I know over there are driving ICE's. They can afford the fuel.

 

I don't know everybody. 

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15 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Interesting except for all the rich people I know over there are driving ICE's. They can afford the fuel.

 

I don't know everybody. 

 

I guess my point was that, at the moment, only "rich" people can afford EV's and therefore enjoy the benefit of paying no road tax (in the form of a petrol tax). Not all rich people drive EV's but all EV drivers are rich, lets say.

 

John Oliver mentioned it in his recent piece about utilities. Rich people can afford fancy solar panel setups (which is good), but then are no longer contributing to the cost of maintaining the grid. This is bad because then poor people will bear the costs of that in the form of higher electricity prices.

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I see your points.

 

However, the electric grid is horrible in many states in the U.S. and it ain't because rich people are going solar. It's because of corruption, poor management, etc. Texas already had to shut theirs down when it got hot this year and people used a lot of air conditioning. They are up and running again until the next time.

 

There was a big scandal in South Carolina where the power company had to pay back millions to customers after gouging them.

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1 hour ago, theGman said:

 

I guess my point was that, at the moment, only "rich" people can afford EV's and therefore enjoy the benefit of paying no road tax (in the form of a petrol tax). Not all rich people drive EV's but all EV drivers are rich, lets say.

 

From my experience lots of non-rich people buy or lease expensive cars - and when/if the car is paid off it is a significant percentage of their net worth. I can't imagine this being different with the current Status Vehicle of Choice (Tesla)*

 

* In fact, I have a colleague who drives a €100,000+ Tesla S P90 etc etc. His net worth - not counting with the car- is negative and sometimes he whines about it (he's fifty something and hates his job, I sometimes use him as an example of how a reasonably well paid engineer can take all the wrong financial decisions and basically have nothing to show after 25 years on the job!). 

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55 minutes ago, mtbiking said:

 

From my experience lots of non-rich people buy or lease expensive cars - and when/if the car is paid off it is a significant percentage of their net worth. I can't imagine this being different with the current Status Vehicle of Choice (Tesla)*

 

* In fact, I have a colleague who drives a €100,000+ Tesla S P90 etc etc. His net worth - not counting with the car- is negative and sometimes he whines about it (he's fifty something and hates his job, I sometimes use him as an example of how a reasonably well paid engineer can take all the wrong financial decisions and basically have nothing to show after 25 years on the job!). 

 

Being shitty at finances aside...your colleague is "rich". He is a well paid engineer. I do not know anybody who has a Tesla he isn't well paid. You will not see many factory workers and supermarket cashiers driving a Tesla. Yet, in reference to the story above, they will be the ones funding the roads that the Tesla's drives on.

 

I'm not talking about poor life decisions. I am saying that richer people have access to a free road tax which the average low earner does not have access too. It's another example of the richer you are, the more you can save on tax.

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22 minutes ago, theGman said:

 

Being shitty at finances aside...your colleague is "rich". He is a well paid engineer. I do not know anybody who has a Tesla he isn't well paid. You will not see many factory workers and supermarket cashiers driving a Tesla. Yet, in reference to the story above, they will be the ones funding the roads that the Tesla's drives on.

 

I'm not talking about poor life decisions. I am saying that richer people have access to a free road tax which the average low earner does not have access too. It's another example of the richer you are, the more you can save on tax.

 

I don't really disagree and I think the form of road tax will change soon but that's a really bad example of being rich = saving tax:

  • He's not rich (low net worth), he has a good enough income (but not so high as to be extraordinary) as an employee and therefore pays a lot in taxes (much more than poor people by your definition), compulsory insurances, etc without the possibility of deductions. He can't stop working or he loses his Tesla, can't afford rent, etc and he's aggravated by this -> definition of life in the hamster wheel  
  • In comparison,  rich people  (high net worth) have as good as always at last a part of their wealth in income generating assets which are either taxed at a lower rate and/or you can tax deduct a bucketload of expenses.  Or so I've heard. And invest the other part of their wealth in things that do not generate income (tax rate is then 0%) but increase in value year after year. Overall they pay (percentually) a lot less tax than my colleague and whenever he thinks about it I'm sure he's bitter and complains about the rich not paying enough taxes, although the tools to build wealth were available to him from the beginning.
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The definition of rich is subjective to our own reality.   

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19 minutes ago, Krieg said:

The definition of rich is subjective to our own reality.   

 

I see it rather as the difference between being rich and playing rich, but agreed, they're two different realities. My colleague lives up to a poor person's image of a rich person: very fancy car, expensive vacations, going out often, etc. And then he complains at lunchtime about everything, and always being out of luck and our low salaries and his shitty boss (not mine!) and never being able to retire :ph34r:

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2 hours ago, theGman said:

John Oliver mentioned it in his recent piece about utilities. Rich people can afford fancy solar panel setups (which is good), but then are no longer contributing to the cost of maintaining the grid. This is bad because then poor people will bear the costs of that in the form of higher electricity prices.

How are they not contributing? Is this a US thing?

I still think the best way forward is to make legislation that forces companies with parking to provide free charging to employees. Companies won't complain much, because it's a tax-free benefit, we solve charging points issues and we solve overpriced charging.

If free charging is not accepted, then a competitive price is also ok.

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5 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

legislation that forces companies with parking to provide free charging to employees.

 

If they pay their employees shit wages, none of them will have EV's.

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26 minutes ago, mtbiking said:

 

I see it rather as the difference between being rich and playing rich, but agreed, they're two different realities. My colleague lives up to a poor person's image of a rich person: very fancy car, expensive vacations, going out often, etc. And then he complains at lunchtime about everything, and always being out of luck and our low salaries and his shitty boss (not mine!) and never being able to retire :ph34r:

 

Your friend sounds like me, I see no problem there.  YOLO.

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