Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

660 posts in this topic

47 minutes ago, Gambatte said:

could it be you meant Wh when you wrote W?

Yes and now corrected, I must have been thinking of light bulbs and electric fires.:o

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19 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I think you and many people still fail to understand how fast this will shift.

 

 

My thought is that it will be something like this: - but with ICE and Electric (and even if it isn't it's a cool picture).

 

2rohph498jh61.jpg

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

The EU should do something about standardizing such batteries.  With two purposes, making the market more competitive and not leaving stranded users if the manufacturer disappear or decides not to make batteries anymore for certain models, creating more e-waste.  Same with batteries for power tools and gardening machines, we have now so many formats that can't interoperate, Bosch, Makita, Einhell, Gardena, Deltafox, etc, etc.

That's a terrible idea. Akin to forcing manufacturers to allow changing motors!

Batteries are deep integrated in vehicle design! They are NOT plug & play! Just the thermal management system interoperability would invalidate such idea.

Not to mention voltage differences, charging differences and so on!

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Just now, MikeMelga said:

That's a terrible idea. Akin to forcing manufacturers to allow changing motors!

Batteries are deep integrated in vehicle design! They are NOT plug & play! Just the thermal management system interoperability would invalidate such idea.

Not to mention voltage differences, charging differences and so on!

 

LOL.  We are talking about eBikes and power tools here.  

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Edit: Oops, missed some pages. I was responding to MikeMelga's guess of when used EVs will reach 3000€: "2028-2030, my best guess."

Yep, I agree with MM on that guess.

ICE cars haven't improved much in the past 20 years, nothing really revolutionary in the past 30 years or more. All they've really achieved is increasing safety at the cost of larger size and increased weight (more airbags, larger crumple zones etc.), and squeezing a little more efficiency out of the motors, often at the cost of performance. Driving aids and in-car-entertainment / connectivity are nice-to-haves and don't greatly differentiate a 2022 model from a 2016 model. Plenty of cars from pre-2000 are just as comfortable as today's models and only really miss stuff like integrated navi and lane assist.

... and yet, even though newer models aren't much better than older ones, there is still a very fast rate of price drop on ICE cars as they get older. I assume you get a reasonable runner from 2010 for about €3000 these days.

EVs, on the other hand, are still relatively in their infancy. It might well be that 2030 models aren't hugely better than today's models in terms of range and charging times, but somehow I doubt it. If there are any battery breakthroughs or revolutionary design concept changes in the next 10 years, then the demand for EVs produced pre-2020 will be strongly dampened. Who wants a car with 300km range after 7 hours of AC charging / 1.5 hours of DC charging, when they can get 600km out of <20 minutes of next-gen charging?

Add to this the fact that all batteries are degrading from the moment they leave the production line: my car might get 420km on a good day today, but in 8 years I'll probably be lucky to squeeze 300km from a full charge. Then who wants a used EV in general? At least an ICE performs more or less exactly the same after 10 years of use as it does after 10 days. Swap out a couple of gaskets and fluids and it's basically the same as the day it was sold.

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37 minutes ago, Krieg said:

LOL.  We are talking about eBikes and power tools here.  

 

Even on E-bikes it might well stifle innovation, battery location for the Bosch system alone has moved from the carrier to the frame and these days actually inside the frame tubing all requiring different formats but all of which have represented ongoing improvements. On the positive side I suspect the internal cell design is unchanged and repair services (cell replacement)  are available outside the original manufactures.

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27 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

Even on E-bikes it might well stifle innovation, battery location for the Bosch system alone has moved from the carrier to the frame and these days actually inside the frame tubing all requiring different formats but all of which have represented ongoing improvements. On the positive side I suspect the internal cell design is unchanged and repair services (cell replacement)  are available outside the original manufactures.

 

This is totally understandable, but I am sure something can be standarized in the future when things are more stable.  i.e. Fazua systems are a good start but not a solution for every type of bike.

 

The alternative is a massive amount of e-Waste in a few years and we will then move to bikes been used for just 3 to 5 years instead of 20 or more years.

 

Most probably the big headache will be the low quality entry level bikes (sub 1000 EUR), and they sold a gazillion of those already.  They are the new "Baumarkt bikes", and I already can see how 80% or 90% of those will be unusable in a few years.    At least you could always fix Baumarkt bikes because they used mostly standard (crappy) parts.

 

Bicycles should go back to be "open" like before, instead of being proprietary like they are becoming.

 

P.S., Battery servicing (retrofitting new cells in existing units) would be financially viable in developing countries, but I doubt it will make much sense in Western Europe.

 

 

Edit: Some info about it:  https://repair.eu/news/disposable-e-bikes-the-problem-with-unrepairable-batteries/

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

Thanks that was interesting, my own experience with an old Chinese made 10 speed ca 200 DM Baumarkt bike was not bad, as you said crappy parts but easy and cheap to repair, it was still going OK when I gave it away after 12 years use. On the contrary though an expensive 27 speed with rear suspension bike from a well known Austrian manufacturer had to be scraped after only 3 years when one arm of the rear swinging frame broke right through, touring only no heavy mtb use.:angry: My current one a Haibike E-bike needed a front wheel replacement (knackered bearings could have been replaced but I didn't have the time) but otherwise has been completely trouble free.

Interestingly I have seen suggestions online saying that if you use a compatible battery refit the original if you take the bike in for a service, seems the manufactures approved service shops  don't like them!

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8 hours ago, circuits said:

If someone wants to totally ignore the far cheaper operating costs, that means the ID.3/Born costs more than the "Minis" car segment price range of €13-18k but is right in the middle of the next segment, the Kleinwagen:

The old TCO argument which to many many people isn´t worth shit because of the initial outlay.

Boots theory - Wikipedia

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Possible new incintives for purchasing new BEVs and new fuel cell cars:

  • cash-for-clunkers program (the article doesn't say how much people will get)
  • 3,000€ discount from the manufacturer (already in place today and continues until 2027)
  • qualifying cars with a sale price of 40,000€ or less should get a refund of 10,800€ (currently 6,000€)
  • qualifying cars with a sale price of 40,001€ - 60,000€ or less should get a refund of 8,400€ (currently 5,000€)

 

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I heard they will change the rules for qualifying, that instead of net price, it will be brutto.

 

For me more important incentive change is making mandatory that companies with car parks must provide charging points to the employees, either at zero cost or at a competitive cost.

 

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1 minute ago, MikeMelga said:

For me more important incentive change is making mandatory that companies with car parks must provide charging points to the employees, either at zero cost or at a competitive cost.

 

That is a good start, but given the number of companies that are sticking with remote workers, more is needed.  I like your "competitive cost" clause.  I get the impression that companies want to charge EV drivers at similar levels as oil companies do to ICE drivers, despite the huge cost differences in sourcing the energy. 

 

I arrived home last night at 18:00 from a long-ish trip.  The car had about 95km range on arrival, and the four charging spots across from me were occupied.  Three were actively charging, and one was plugged in and either finished or never started.  About an hour later 3 were available and the one non-charging car was still there.  Public level-2 charging is only going to get worse unless more is done.

 

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Question for all you electric car drivers, back when we had a car, it was not uncommon for it to sit outside unused for 2 or 3 months.

TBH it was an emergency only vehicle and unless we were going to collect or deliver something bulky or to travel on vacation the car just sat outside.

How long would the charge hold up in such a scenario on an electric car?  Days, weeks, months?

 

We have no off-road parking and the road is too far away from an extension lead, so any charging would be done at a remote charge point, meaning if the batteries are flat we would be stuck there.

 

If the battery had ever given out on the diesel car, we had an emergency battery charger thing which would have gotten us going, and/or we could get a jump start from a neighbour.

What would we have done with an electric car?

 

 

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Yeah, right now it seems they want to make huge profits from people without home charging. And non-Tesla drivers.

My hope there is either some legislation to regulate it or, my favourite, Tesla opens superchargers to all, still charging a premium for non-Tesla, but keeping competition on their toes.

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4 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Yeah, right now it seems they want to make huge profits from people without home charging. And non-Tesla drivers.

My hope there is either some legislation to regulate it or, my favourite, Tesla opens superchargers to all, still charging a premium for non-Tesla, but keeping competition on their toes.

 

I thought you were a pro- Free Markets guy.

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8 minutes ago, pappnase said:

...

 

For Tesla it's important to turn off Sentry Mode.  Here's a link to an analysis done by a relatively famous (but I find him annoying) YouTuber.  Bottom line: if you start with a high state of charge, you'll have months before you have to worry about it. 

 

IF you do run out of juice, ADAC can charge your car off a tow truck enough so you can get to a charger.  Whether this really works or not, I have no idea because I have never run out of juice, or gasoline for that matter.

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11 minutes ago, pappnase said:

Question for all you electric car drivers, back when we had a car, it was not uncommon for it to sit outside unused for 2 or 3 months.

TBH it was an emergency only vehicle and unless we were going to collect or deliver something bulky or to travel on vacation the car just sat outside.

How long would the charge hold up in such a scenario on an electric car?  Days, weeks, months?

Many reports from Tesla owners show several months, including freezing temperature. 3 months should be easy. Above that it depends much on temperature.

 

Quote

If the battery had ever given out on the diesel car, we had an emergency battery charger thing which would have gotten us going, and/or we could get a jump start from a neighbour.

What would we have done with an electric car?

 

If you let your EV battery die for a long time, it's gone. Fortunately most new EVs have good battery management system and also an APP to tell you NOT to let it go down. If it's down to zero for only a few hours, at high ambient temperature, it should be OK and a mobile service van should be able to get you running. Some EVs can also charge other EVs, like the Ioniq.

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12 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

I thought you were a pro- Free Markets guy.

No, I'm capitalist, believe in an open market, with necessary regulation. Without regulation you go down to the worst of capitalism.

Meaning I believe state should regulate to ensure fair and healthy competition, along with consumer rights protection.

 

EDIT: as an example, I don't use Uber and I won't. For me it represents the worst of capitalism. On the other hand, I buy at Amazon and have no issue with it, because it service is top notch and allows small companies to reach a global market.

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11 minutes ago, pappnase said:

...

 

Another anecdote: VW ID.3 sat for 2 weeks in February and lost 2 km range in that time.

 

The phenomenon is called "vampire drain" if you want to google it. 

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@CincyInDE @MikeMelga Thanks both, it was just idle curiosity, TBH I'm not gonna buy a new car anytime soon. My eyesight isn't up to driving anymore and so not a lot of point, but I had always wondered so I thought it was worth asking.

 

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