Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

590 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, yesterday said:

Generally agree with you, or I hope when supply meets demand and more choice is out there then prices will fall, not sure they can fall to the 7000 Euro new car prices we have in the ICE world, time will tell


 

Please clarify: what is this hypothetical 7.000 euro car you're talking about? I'm talking about one that's actually available.

 

In all of Germany I see a very small handful of Mitsubishi Space Stars starting at 9.500 euro but otherwise the low end starts at 11.000 to 13.000 euro.

 

Prices have gone way up and availability is getting worse every month.

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1 hour ago, Keleth said:

There is so much angst made over a car that can only go 300km without charging.

How many people actually regularly drive that distance in one go without any sort of stop.

 

There is still an issue there, the EVs that can go >300 km with one charge are normally the high end ones.   The ones in the low end bracket go around 100-140 km.  Then take in consideration battery degradation, which is worse in the low end because the battery management system is poor, that's why there are nowadays plenty of 2012-2015 smallish EVs in the UK for under 5k, because they can go only 40 or 50 km with a charge.

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59 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

There is still an issue there, the EVs that can go >300 km with one charge are normally the high end ones.   The ones in the low end bracket go around 100-140 km.  Then take in consideration battery degradation, which is worse in the low end because the battery management system is poor, that's why there are nowadays plenty of 2012-2015 smallish EVs in the UK for under 5k, because they can go only 40 or 50 km with a charge.

 

After subsidies, CO2 and tax credits, the EV I ordered has a decent range (420km WLTP) and the base version costs roughly €22k with theoretically €7.500 less operating costs than a combustion engine over 10 years: https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/391601-electric-vehicles-in-germany-all-the-ins-and-outs/?do=findComment&comment=3914607

 

If someone wants to totally ignore the far cheaper operating costs, that means the ID.3/Born costs more than the "Minis" car segment price range of €13-18k but is right in the middle of the next segment, the Kleinwagen:

 

https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/391601-electric-vehicles-in-germany-all-the-ins-and-outs/?do=findComment&comment=3922064

 

But if you dare to include the potential savings of €7.500 in operating costs, this is definitely in the Minis price range.

 

And finally, for people who can't afford that outlay there are some potentially attractive lease-to-own rates if you're clever about avoiding the typical leasing traps.

 

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8 minutes ago, circuits said:

If someone wants to totally ignore the far cheaper operating costs, that means the ID.3/Born costs more than the "Minis" car segment price range of €13-18k but is right in the middle of the next segment, the Kleinwagen:

 

 

Its only far cheaper if you can charge from home, street charging is getting more and more expensive and if you do not have a Tesla ( Supercharge network), charging on the Autobahn is also quite expensive also.

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14 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

Its only far cheaper if you can charge from home, street charging is getting more and more expensive and if you do not have a Tesla ( Supercharge network), charging on the Autobahn is also quite expensive also.

 

 

But then Teslas have the insurance issue, but to be honest I am not sure if it still like that.  Last time I checked the insurance for a Tesla 3 costed the double as the one for the ID.3.  Not sure why, maybe because Tesla do not offer a proper maintenance support chain, and of course the "free garage choice" option does not exist for obvious reasons.

 

And if we go back to compare it with the people who buy cheaper second hand cars, these people (like me) normally do not pay for Vollkasko insurance, we pay only for Haftpflicht or Teilkasko and we take the risk, because making big damages to your own 5k-15k car is not the same as making damages to your brand new 40k car.  So instead of paying 1.5k-3k EUR for insurance we pay 300 - 400 EUR.   Even minor cosmetic damages we do not fix them and just continue driving like that, so more money saved there.

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33 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

Its only far cheaper if you can charge from home, street charging is getting more and more expensive and if you do not have a Tesla ( Supercharge network), charging on the Autobahn is also quite expensive also.

 

Sources please? Petrol/diesel prices are going up in tandem with electricity costs.

 

It's also a pretty glib assertion unless you've compared the charging rates of all the different charging cards. Check out a recent comparison chart:

 

https://www.born-forum.de/attachment/907-elli-tarife-04-2022-jpg/

 

 

Citations:

https://ecomento.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ID3-Vergleich-laufende-Kosten.jpg

https://www.vzbv.de/sites/default/files/2021-09/Zusammenfassung_TCO-Studie_deutsch_final.pdf

https://www.allianzdirect.de/kfz-versicherung/unterhaltskosten-auto-ratgeber/

 

 

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2 hours ago, Krieg said:

Then take in consideration battery degradation, which is worse in the low end because the battery management system is poo

I'm probably wrong, but not knowing things my assumption was that for the "same" car, one can opt for shorter (cheaper) or longer (more expensive) travel range, and the ONLY difference is the size of the battery, like number of cells or whatever, everything else stays the same. No?

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28 minutes ago, Krieg said:

for insurance we pay 300 - 400 EUR.

My last car insurance premium was 210. Yes, I'm cheap.

Maybe insurance companies expect that owners of more expensive cars are less sensitive to costs, so they (the insurers) have bigger profit margins for higher end cars.

Guys, thanks for subsidizing us!:D

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1 hour ago, Gambatte said:

I'm probably wrong, but not knowing things my assumption was that for the "same" car, one can opt for shorter (cheaper) or longer (more expensive) travel range, and the ONLY difference is the size of the battery, like number of cells or whatever, everything else stays the same. No?

No, cheaper and shorter range versions sometimes have cheaper battery technology. Example: Tesla cheapest model uses a completely different battery technology. They optimize for cost.

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

But then Teslas have the insurance issue, but to be honest I am not sure if it still like that.  Last time I checked the insurance for a Tesla 3 costed the double as the one for the ID.3.

No, I'm paying 1600€ for the Tesla Vollkasko, being only SF6. My Mercedes, with Teilkasko, costs me 1100€.

Trick here is I negotiate all my insurances together with Allianz, personally.

 

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

  Not sure why, maybe because Tesla do not offer a proper maintenance support chain, and of course the "free garage choice" option does not exist for obvious reasons.

Actually, Tesla has officially recognized 3rd party shops. And some parts have alternative sources.

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1 hour ago, circuits said:

 

Sources please? Petrol/diesel prices are going up in tandem with electricity costs.

 

 

Says here, you pay 0.50 cent per kwh,   https://www.munich-airport.com/charging-electric-vehicles-8499114#:~:text=The%20price%20per%20kWh%20is,Euro%20or%2050%20Cent%20figure.            

 

in your linked page of 

 

https://ecomento.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ID3-Vergleich-laufende-Kosten.jpg 

 

its talking of 31cent/ kwh 

 

Thats virually the double !

 

Here it says, you can pay as much as 0.79 cent/kwh, where as at home I think I remember the cost of a wall socket is about 0.17 cent/kwh.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1167538/electricity-prices-charging-stations-electric-cars-by-provider-germany/#:~:text=Premium%20statistics-,Electricity%20prices%20for%20e%2Dcar%20charging%20stations,Germany%20in%202021%2C%20by%20provider&text=As%20of%202021%2C%20Ionity%20was,at%2079%20cents%20per%20kWh.   

 

 

Thats why I say, it depends on if you can charge at home or not

 

 

plus I did not realise, the insurance cost difference. - I pay 215 Euro a year for   Teilkasko , but with SF of over 30, with 25,000Km a year - guess you would not do that with a car costing more than 20,000 Euro

 

 

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2 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

Says here, you pay 0.50 cent per kwh,   https://www.munich-airport.com/charging-electric-vehicles-8499114#:~:text=The%20price%20per%20kWh%20is,Euro%20or%2050%20Cent%20figure.            

 

in your linked page of 

 

https://ecomento.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ID3-Vergleich-laufende-Kosten.jpg 

 

its talking of 31cent/ kwh 

 

Thats virually the double !

 

Typing mistake and you meant 0.50 eur/kWh the "double" of 31 ct/kWh?

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16 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

No, I'm paying 1600€ for the Tesla Vollkasko, being only SF6. My Mercedes, with Teilkasko, costs me 1100€.

Trick here is I negotiate all my insurances together with Allianz, personally.

 

I said the Tesla insurance was double the price compared to the ID.3, not compared to your MB ICE.

 

I just checked in Check24 and the Vollkasko insurance for an ID.3 with SF6 costs 497 EUR with HDI and 528 EUR with VHV if you want a more traditional insurer.  I chose 150 EUR SB for Teilkasko and 500 EUR SB for Vollkasko, so it is not like I am cheating by choosing bad options to make it cheaper.

 

And here you have it, I am not the only one thinking that way:

 

https://www.assekuranz-info-portal.de/presse/versicherungen/2020/12/kfz-versicherung-fur-tesla-model-3-im-schnitt-doppelt-so-hoch-wie-fur-den-id3-von-volkswagen/#:~:text=Gegen%C3%BCber%20dem%20Branchenneuling%20ID.,Fahrzeugen%20regelrecht%20sch%C3%BCtzen%20zu%20wollen.

 

 

 

 

 

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The cost of charging at public chargers varies wildly.  It's a bit annoying because it's a never ending search for the best deal.  Currently it's bonnet.com, where I'm paying 25 pence per kWh in 200kWh chunks.  SWM wants 0.49€ / kWh (AC) and 0.69€ / kWh (DC).  Tesla Superchargers are running around 0.50€ / kWh.  The best charging is the charging you do off your home electric meter.  This sucks for apartment dwellers like me and many, many others.

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3 hours ago, Gambatte said:

I'm probably wrong, but not knowing things my assumption was that for the "same" car, one can opt for shorter (cheaper) or longer (more expensive) travel range, and the ONLY difference is the size of the battery, like number of cells or whatever, everything else stays the same. No?

 

Not in the same category as most posts here but as an E-bike owner I have been looking to extend its range and stave off any battery degradation, not noticed any yet but it is now 4 years old so may happen soon. The current  battery is 400Wh and Bosch offer the same model in 500Wh although they increased their battery prices this year by a massive 20% which puts it now at over €700,-. A compatible German made alternative is available on the market in 540Wh, 620Wh and 745Wh sizes at prices stating at €539-, for me the 620Wh at €589,- looks very attractive and will put my bike back up to modern standards for range. Still represents a major investment though being almost 25% of the original buying price of the complete bike back in 2018.:unsure:

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3 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

Not in the same category as most posts here but as an E-bike owner I have been looking to extend its range and stave off any battery degradation, not noticed any yet but it is now 4 years old so may happen soon. The current  battery is 400W and Bosch offer the same model in 500W although they increased their battery prices this year by a massive 20% which puts it now at over €700,-. A compatible German made alternative is available on the market in 540W, 620W and 745W sizes at prices stating at €539-, for me the 620W at €589,- looks very attractive and will put my bike back up to modern standards for range. Still represents a major investment though being almost 25% of the original buying price of the bike back in 2018.:unsure:

 

The EU should do something about standardizing such batteries.  With two purposes, making the market more competitive and not leaving stranded users if the manufacturer disappear or decides not to make batteries anymore for certain models, creating more e-waste.  Same with batteries for power tools and gardening machines, we have now so many formats that can't interoperate, Bosch, Makita, Einhell, Gardena, Deltafox, etc, etc.

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@keith2011 could it be you meant Wh when you wrote W?

e-bike are super interesting. My cycle commute is short and I'm happy to do it on a "normal" bicycle, but if it was xyz longer...

I wonder how soon many motorists that now find their commute too far for cycling, will jump on the ebike wagon, super exciting waiting for this to happen.

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46 minutes ago, CincyInDE said:

The best charging is the charging you do off your home electric meter.  This sucks for apartment dwellers like me

 

We had an electric outlet installed in our parking place in our tief garage that is connected to our flat so the cost goes directly on our electric bill. We are paying 27 cent/kwh. Will only be using chargers now on long trips. It think many landlords are allowing this now. Himself can also charge his ebike down there in the garage or in our EV which has normal electric outlets.

 

As for Tesla superchargers, there are also fast chargers everywhere for other brands of EV's.

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2 minutes ago, Gambatte said:

I wonder how soon many motorists that now find their commute too far for cycling, will jump on the ebike wagon, super exciting waiting for this to happen.

 

It is not only the distance.  I jumped to eBike commuting two years ago, around two days a week when the weather allows it.  I still could do it with a normal bike (around 13 km each way), but I do not want to arrive to the office all sweaty in the mornings, specially nowadays that they closed the showers because of Covid.   Even during summer, if I leave early enough I won't sweat at all with the eBike.  Going back home in the afternoon is different, but then I do not care getting sweaty.

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