Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

590 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, Keleth said:

Ah silly me I thought EVs were supposed to be for everyone. I thought they were supposed to be there to help the climate crisis.

Strange that you seem to think there´s no problem with them being priced the same as a mid-range ICE (the cheaper ones).

Most of this thread is actually about how the price of EVs needs to come down to enable them to be the future but you seem to think that´s not a problem and that EVs are aimed at a certain market.

If it wasn´t for the pollution problems of ICE then EVs would be and would always remain a luxury item but their supposed to be the saviour so the prices need to come down.

I never realised helping the environment should be limited to someones spending power.

 

 

 

No more than cruise ships.  Who said they were supposed to be for everyone?  Can you name one product that's made for everyone?

Your "logic" goes way beyond any reality.  Everyone here has faced setbacks in their lives, but you chose stay-back, waiting for the blacksmith shops to come back.  Meanwhile, the "little guys" you so often mention wake up every day and go to work to bring you gas from Russia, food from the farms and electricity from nuclear power generated not in your backyard so you can live a lifestyle kings from the past would envy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Why not look at the actual numbers before making assumptions about what people can afford?

 

1. In 2021 only 1/3 of new car purchases were by private owners vs 2/3 which were for businesses.

 

2. The average price of a new car in Germany is around 36,000, while the average price of a used car is around 23,000.

 

3. Below is a table that I transcribed of all the relevant personal vehicles (PKW) that are registered in Germany by market segment (everything under 100K was ignored in order to focus on the most popular vehicles).

 

With EV subsidies there are only a small handful cheap, low-range EVs that can compete in the €13,000 - €18,000 "minis" segment. However, that cheapest segment only accounts for 6,9% of all registered vehicles.

 

The current popular lower-priced EVs with a decent range (eg. Renault Zoe Hyundai e-Kona, forthcoming ID.3 Pure 2022) start at €24,000 after subsidies. So in terms of new-car buyers, this is on the edge of the 2nd most affordable "Kleinwagen" segment (which altogether represents 25,4% of current registered private vehicles) but is almost the same as the average used car price.

 

Based on these numbers I'd say EVs are out of the price range of at least 1/4 of prospective new car buyers - and obviously higher for used car buyers:

Germany: PKW Fahrzeugzulassungen 2021 / Total Personal vehicle registrations 2021


Vehicle Class			Total / Percent		Price Range

MINIS				3,3m / 6.9%		€13,000 - €18,000
	
Citroen C1 			103k
Fiat Panda 			185k
Fiat 500			318k
Ford Ka				142k
Hyundai I10			224k
Kia Picanto			129k
Opel Adam			150k
Renault Twingo			349k
Toyota Aygo			169k
VW Fox				103k
VW Lupo				108k
VW Up				314k


KLEINWAGEN			8,9m / 18.5%		€18,000 - €24,000
	
Audi A1/S1			201k
Citroen C3			163k
Fiat Punto			202k
Ford Fiesta			866k
Honda Jazz			137k
Hyundai I20			207k
Mazda 2				147k
Mini				504k
Mitsubishi Colt			101k
Opel Corsa			1,18m
Peugeot 206			195k
Peugeot 207			191k
Renault Clio			381k
Seat Ibiza			419k
Skoda Fabia			814k
Suzuki Swift 			129k
Toyota Yaris			348k
VW Polo				1,47m



KOMPAKTKLASSE			11,9m / 24.7%		€25,000 - €35,000
	
Audi A3,S3,RS3			757k
BMW 1				596k
BMW 2				210k
Citroen C4			104k
Dacia Logan			119k
Dacia Sandero			237k
Ford Focus			839k
Honda Civic			127k
Hyundai I30			294k
Kia CEED			180k
Mercedes A			691k
Opel Astra			1,13m
Renault Megane			255k
Seat Leon			403k
Skoda Octavia			702k
Skoda Rapid			111k
Toyota Auris			153k
Toyota Corolla			129k
VW Beetle			122k
VW Golf				3,69m


MITTELKLASSE 			6,13m /	12.7% 		€33,000 - €45,000

Audi A4,S4,RS4			906k
Audi A5,S5,RS5			170k
BMW 3				1,04m
Ford Mondeo			266k
Mazda 6				112k
Mercedes C			1,05m
Mercedes CLA			111k
Opel Insignia			206k
Opel Vectra			120k
Skoda Superb			174k
Toyota Avensis			105k
VW Passat			1,00m

...and the rest: 

OBERE MITTELKLASSE		1,89m /	3.9%
OBERKLASSE 			276k / 0.6%
SUVs 				4,30m / 8.9%
GELÄNDEWAGEN 			2,77m / 5.8%
SPORTWAGEN 			93k / 1.9%
MINI-VANS 			1,94m /	4.0%
GROSSRAUM-VANS 			1,98m / 4.1%

 

https://www.kba.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/Statistik/Fahrzeuge/FZ12/fz12_2021.xlsx?__blob=publicationFile&v=4

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3 hours ago, fraufruit said:

 

I'm sure you understand about supply and demand. That will keep the prices up for a while. They can't build them fast enough yet to meet the demand. Hence, people have to wait a year or more to get one.

 

Car companies have and are spending billions upon billions to build new factories to build EV's. They aren't in it for charity. Business 101.

 

Most people can't afford to put solar panels on their houses, if they even own a house. We don't.

 

Give it some years. The prices will come down and there will be more cheaper models.

 

 

Oh I completely understand why they´re expensive (however MM keeps rattling on about profits at Tesla) and haven´t said they shouldn´t be that price merely that they will need to come down in price and the second-hand market to get really going before they can be considered the future.

 

 

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1 hour ago, catjones said:

Who said they were supposed to be for everyone? 

Well by 2035 they´re going to have to be.

Many 1000s if not millions of people drive cheap cars but if EV prices stay the same they won´t be able to.

 

So let me get this straight,you don´t think EVs should be pushed as being "the cleaner future" but rather they should stay as they are and be considered more a luxury item?

1 hour ago, catjones said:

Everyone here has faced setbacks in their lives, but you chose stay-back, waiting for the blacksmith shops to come back.  Meanwhile, the "little guys" you so often mention wake up every day and go to work to bring you gas from Russia, food from the farms and electricity from nuclear power generated not in your backyard so you can live a lifestyle kings from the past would envy.

I think you need to go back on your meds.

 

Oh and btw I lived about 10 mins from Dungerness so not a nimby.

 

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3 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

Why to you care what MM says?

I don´t care but when he keeps rattling on about the massive profits Tesla makes it puts the lie to your reasons for why they´re expensive.

 

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1 minute ago, Keleth said:

I don´t care but when he keeps rattling on about the massive profits Tesla makes it puts the lie to your reasons for why they´re expensive.

 

 

The reasons that I stated are for all car companies, not just Tesla.

In the end, who knows what gets cheaper with general inflation?

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1 minute ago, fraufruit said:

 

The reasons that I stated are for all car companies, not just Tesla.

In the end, who knows what gets cheaper with general inflation?

Any company that has to retool to make something will have higher costs.

Yet Tesla is not doing that and they´re apparently making massive profits so why is a Tesla so damn expensive even compared to other EVs?

 

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28 minutes ago, scook17 said:

I wonder how many EVs get stolen?

Watch how easy it is now. Shocking:

 

 

1. So far in Germany EVs are stolen less percentage-wise. In the US, Tesla's are stolen 90% less than other vehicles.

 

https://www.basicthinking.de/blog/2021/10/15/teslas-seltener-gestohlen-als-andere-autos/

https://www.radioeins.de/programm/sendungen/der_schoene_morgen/stimmts/2021/stimmt-s--dass-elektroautos-seltener-gestohlen-werden-als-andere.html

 

 

2. Many EVs have (optionally enabled!) 24/7 data connections to the manufacturers to collect vehicle or anonymized driving data to improve their semi-autonomous driving software. Not to mention features like anti-theft tracing, "Sentry mode" and cryptographically-signed key fobs.

 

 

3. Many popular Germany vehicles now use UWB to protect their keyless entry from amplification attacks mentioned in that video you posted:

 

"Ultra Wideband allows for high-precision localization at distances typically up to 20 meters. When combining multiple UWB radios into a single network, UWB technology can as such be used to identify the exact position of mobile UWB-equipped consumer devices in the immediate vicinity."

 

https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/ausstattung-technik-zubehoer/assistenzsysteme/keyless/

 

 

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Tesla are not massive, they are at the moment trying to build out there factories to meet supply problems. They only really make 2 models in any numbers the MODEL Y and 3. Teslas factories are tooled mainly to make these models, so do not have massive re tooling costs, they share alot of parts, to keep costs down.

 

Musk, has build the factories up in an intelligent way, he is adding them every so often, until no can longer sell the Model 3/Y at a certain price, as not everyone can afford them after all. Musk knows he can sell his cars many times over, so he can just keep putting up the prices and people who really want one will just pay it, capitalism. When supply meets deamnd he will have to lover prices if he wants to keep people buying them 

 

He will them try to build up  the baby Tesla, to try to get into the small car market.

 

Musk is said to want to start the truck production line, which will need alot of re tooling or further new factories, which he needs to sell a lot of cars and make money on them to fund further production.

 

Tesla, has done a good job about kick starting the EV market and others are following, but EV's are still not for average income families.

 

The market will split as it always does into different types of EV's  - at different prices, but I think thats some way down the road, whats important is that its started

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34 minutes ago, Keleth said:

Any company that has to retool to make something will have higher costs.

Yet Tesla is not doing that and they´re apparently making massive profits so why is a Tesla so damn expensive even compared to other EVs?

 

 

All companies have to re-tool or build whole new factories to build EV's.

 

Tesla has built only whole new factories - no re-tooling. They have invested a lot more. That is one reason they are expensive. The other is supply and demand.

 

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32 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Tesla, has done a good job about kick starting the EV market and others are following, but EV's are still not for average income families.

 

1. This statement doesn't really jive with the German registration statistics I posted above.

 

As I mentioned, you can get mass-produced popular models of EVs with a respectable range (380-420km WLTP) starting at €24k which is the top end of the compact class cost - while the average new car price is €36k. And those 2 cheaper segments only represent 25% of vehicle registrations...

 

2. There are various websites that help consumers calculate how much they can afford for vehicle payments and all costs depending on their income and expenses. If you enter the average German net income of €2,088, the maximum vehicle credit is listed at €45k.

 

If someone wants to afford a €24k vehicle, an monthly net income of at least €1,800 is recommended.

 

https://www.verivox.de/kredit/ratgeber/welches-auto-kann-ich-mir-leisten-in-drei-schritten-zum-kaufpreis-120632/

https://www.sozialpolitik-aktuell.de/files/sozialpolitik-aktuell/_Politikfelder/Finanzierung/Datensammlung/PDF-Dateien/abbII10.pdf

 

 

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18 minutes ago, circuits said:

Tesla, has done a good job about kick starting the EV market and others are following, but EV's are still not for average income families.

1. This statement doesn't really jive with the German registration statistics I posted above.

 

 

I meant that before Tesla made the Model 3, EV's were sold in the thousands, all the major car companies were just making ICE cars and had no really intension to get into EV's, once Tesla showed that you can make an EV and people will buy it, then we now have millions of EV's being made each year, that is 'Kick starting the EV market'

 

Sure prices are coming down, but there are people in general and on this site who say they just do not have the initial money need to buy an EV or maintain a lease agreement

 

 

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On 4/14/2022, 9:19:18, fraufruit said:

Tesla has built only whole new factories - no re-tooling. They have invested a lot more. That is one reason they are expensive. The other is supply and demand.

 

Don't keep wasting your breath, Karl Marx (aka Keleth) insists it's capitalist greed; nothing more, nothing less.

 

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16 hours ago, catjones said:

 

Don't keep wasting your breath, Karl Marx (aka Keleth) insists it's capitalist greed; nothing more, nothing less.

 

Lol Tesla made 5bn profit last year.

Keep telling yourself it was building new factories that keeps the price up.

 

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Himself drove our EV on a long trip. As planned, he charged in Austria (Eisenstatten?) with only 40 km. left. 100% charge in 20 minutes. Time to grab a sandwich and a coffee and stretch his legs.  Charging for free in our marina while down there. We're very pleased.

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