Electric vehicles in Germany - all the ins-and-outs!

641 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, yesterday said:

interesting "autopilot" features like lane change and  recognition  / use of speed signs have been on Mercedes ICE cars for at least 5 years

Or cannot be said here as its an EV thread only ? 

 

Just saying

 

Yup, this clearly isn't an EV-only topic. Semi-autonomous driving features generally trickle down from luxury brands, high-end models ...and obviously Tesla. Not sure what the deal with Tesla is regarding street signs on the Autobahn, considering it's been a stable feature for 5-7 years on VW/Audi/BMW/Mercedes.

 

On that note, Germany is imposing some heavy July 2022 safety system regulations on all newly introduced car models then in 2024 for all new cars:

 

Quote
  • Intelligenter Geschwindigkeitsassistent: überwacht die Geschwindigkeit und gibt Rückmeldung, wenn der Fahrer zu schnell ist.

  • Rückfahrassistent: erkennt Personen und Gegenstände hinter dem Fahrzeug und warnt den Fahrer.

  • Notbremsassistent: erkennt Gefahrensituationen und kann selbst Bremsung einleiten.

  • Notfall-Spurhalteassistent: erkennt, wenn der Fahrer die Spur verlässt und warnt. Das System kann bei Bedarf eingreifen.

  • Abbiegeassistent/Totwinkelassistent/Kollisionswarnsystem für Busse und Lkw: Die Systeme erkennen Fußgänger und Radfahrer, die sich in unmittelbarer Nähe der Vorder- oder Beifahrerseite des Fahrzeugs befinden, geben eine Warnung ab und können einen Zusammenstoß verhindern.

  • Müdigkeitsassistent: warnt bei nachlassender Aufmerksamkeit des Fahrers.

 

tldr; mandated speed warnings, back-up assistant, emergency braking assistant, lane-keeping, lane-change warning and sleepy driving warning

 

https://www.adac.de/news/neu-in-2022/

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, circuits said:

Hey @MikeMelga - you mentioned before that Tesla recognizes speed limits signs just fine. So what's your take regarding Tesla's autopilot hardware AP3 supposedly recognizing but totally ignoring said signs on the Autobahn?

Simple. Tesla needs a training set. They've trained American speed limits and signs. For EU, they've only trained the simple ones, plus a few conditional ones, which are common across Europe. The thing is, each country has different non-standard signs, like the Autobahn has. So they need to specialize it to each country. They haven't done it fully yet, but every few months I notice more and more signs being recognized. You can't imagine the amount of special speed signs in Germany!

AFAIK, right now Tesla only recognizes :

- standard international speed signs

- time conditional speed signs

- wet conditional speed sign

 

It's a matter of dedicating a team for training it to Europe. AFAIK, they are assemblying a team in Europe for that purpose. It's a matter of scale and coverage, not of technology.

Mobileye has been providing this feature for Mercedes and other premium OEM for years, yes, but they have a very limited scope. It's easy to recognize signs, definitely easier than recognizing animals or pedestrians. Thing is, Mobileye focused on a small set of targets to recognize, while Tesla has to cover all.

 

There is a traffic signs patent from Mobileye that basically prevents it from being copied. Tesla went around this patent by having a different technical solution.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a thought, with the massive increase in electrical costs and the premium paid for buying an electric car, are they really that much cheaper to run than an ICE?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, French bean said:

Just a thought, with the massive increase in electrical costs and the premium paid for buying an electric car, are they really that much cheaper to run than an ICE?

Sure. Diesel cost is rising more than electricity cost. I'm still paying around 27c per kWh, so I'm paying roughly 3.9€ per 100km.

A diesel car would cost 12-14€ per 100km.

In Portugal it's 9c per kWh at night, so 100km cost 1.3€!

Not only that, my company and many others are setting up free charging in the garage. I'm about to pay 0€ per 100km.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thats true at home or Tesla reload stations, but if you want to fill a car from a pubic station prices for electricity are rising, I think Cincy said

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, yesterday said:

interesting "autopilot" features like lane change and  recognition  / use of speed signs have been on Mercedes ICE cars for at least 5 years

Or cannot be said here as its an EV thread only ? 

 

Just saying

These are based on Mobileye solutions. They focus on a very narrow domain and work well on it.

It's the quick & dirty solution that solves some issues, but doesn't lead to autonomous driving.

 

Tesla just wants a generic solution that eventually leads to autonomous driving. So it takes more time. Recognizing street signs is something I could have done when studying at university 20 years ago, nothing fancy. I actually did a software to detect license plates in 1998, and only took me 2 days.

And no, I didn't use OpenCV :D

 

Lane keeping is also a good example. I haven't seen any lane keeping as good as with the Tesla, especially because the Tesla doesn't even need lanes! A row of parked cars is enough!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Thats true at home or Tesla reload stations, but if you want to fill a car from a pubic station prices for electricity are rising, I think Cincy said

Yeah... as I've been saying the future is not public charging stations, it's company charging.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, French bean said:

Just a thought, with the massive increase in electrical costs and the premium paid for buying an electric car, are they really that much cheaper to run than an ICE?

Not arguing against EV, sure they have their merits but...

Spending over 50keur for a car, or whatever, and asking if it's cheap?:huh:

A cheap car costs 5-10keur purchase and under 100eur/month for everything.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Gambatte said:

Not arguing against EV, sure they have their merits but...

Spending over 50keur for a car, or whatever, and ask if it's cheap?:huh:

A cheap car costs 5-10keur purchase and under 100eur/month for everything.

 

Sure but you are comparing apples and oranges 

 

A 5 to 10K, car is not the same as a Tesla, in features and new ness - to compare you have to pick an ICE in the same price as a Tesla, then compare the features and running costs. comfort etc. Its not all about the price !!!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Gambatte said:

Not arguing against EV, sure they have their merits but...

Spending over 50keur for a car, or whatever, and ask if it's cheap?:huh:

A cheap car costs 5-10keur purchase and under 100eur/month for everything.

Not again this argument... the average new car price in Germany is 34k, not 5-10k!

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Yeah... as I've been saying the future is not public charging stations, it's company charging.

 

So pensioners should travel by bus?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

These are based on Mobileye solutions. They focus on a very narrow domain and work well on it.

It's the quick & dirty solution that solves some issues, but doesn't lead to autonomous driving.

 

Tesla just wants a generic solution that eventually leads to autonomous driving. So it takes more time. Recognizing street signs is something I could have done when studying at university 20 years ago, nothing fancy. I actually did a software to detect license plates in 1998, and only took me 2 days.

And no, I didn't use OpenCV :D

 

Lane keeping is also a good example. I haven't seen any lane keeping as good as with the Tesla, especially because the Tesla doesn't even need lanes! A row of parked cars is enough!

 

OK, agree but, to get Level 3, which means you can go in the back of the car and sleep or whatever, the car has to be able drive in the snow/heavy rain where you cannot see the lane markings and or sides of the autobahn/street like a human can

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, HH_Sailor said:

 

So pensioners should travel by bus?

Pensioners and poor people - will have to take public transport or EV prices will have to fall very much.

 

Cheapest new cars start at around 7000 Euro, not the same spec. but alot of people can afford it. When will we get a 7000 Euro EV ??? without the government part paying for it ??

 

Sure the Average car is 30 K in Germany, but an awful lot of cars are sold well below that, because that 30K, also includes  some very expensive cars as well.

 

EVs currently are not for the poor, not sure how long that will take to change, if it every does

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Gambatte said:

Not arguing against EV, sure they have their merits but...

Spending over 50keur for a car, or whatever, and asking if it's cheap?:huh:

A cheap car costs 5-10keur purchase and under 100eur/month for everything.

 

I would be on your side, because I prefer to buy used cars in the range of 10k-20k.  But the 100 EUR a month is long gone, at the moment it costs me 200 EUR to fill my tank, which is enough for two to three weeks if I don't travel anywhere.

 

29 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Not again this argument... the average new car price in Germany is 34k, not 5-10k!

 

Key word AVERAGE.  Not everyone has the budget or willingness to buy a car priced at the average price.  Actually I would think the small car market share is considerable bigger than the over the average share in terms of sold units.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, HH_Sailor said:

 

So pensioners should travel by bus?

Actually, it's forecast that autonomous driving will bring down transportation costs to everyone.

It's capitalism at its best: rich people pay for initial development, because they want to impress their friends, then later technology becomes accessible to everyone and makes life cheaper

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Key word AVERAGE.  Not everyone has the budget or willingness to buy a car priced at the average price.  Actually I would think the small car market share is considerable bigger than the over the average share in terms of sold units.

I think there is a general idea most people drive small cheap cars. It's far from true:

 

The most important market sectors for German new car sales in 2021 were:

As you can see, the small car segment is not dominant at all. Even if you add the compact + small, it's not even a third!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the way, although I was thinking of doing it myself, I asked a quote from Tesla for service.

 

They quoted 120€ for brake fluid check, wiper blades replacement and cabin filter replacement! They will also perform a few other things for free.

Just the parts costs would be close to that value, so I'm definitely doing it during the tire swap.

So 120€ of maintenance (excluding tire swap) for 3 years of ownership... not bad!! Of course problems start later in ownership, but I'm happy so far.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Example pricing Kia-E-Niro, fully electric from Kia website

 

Cash Price = 38920

Finance Option 1: 16305 + (48x25=1200) + 17154 = 34658

Finance Option 2: 16305 + (48x357=17136) + 0     = 33441

 

So what am I missing here? Why is it cheaper to buy a Kia via finance than paying in cash?

 

Clipboard01.jpg

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

By the way, although I was thinking of doing it myself, I asked a quote from Tesla for service.

 

They quoted 120€ for brake fluid check, wiper blades replacement and cabin filter replacement! They will also perform a few other things for free.

Just the parts costs would be close to that value, so I'm definitely doing it during the tire swap.

So 120€ of maintenance (excluding tire swap) for 3 years of ownership... not bad!! Of course problems start later in ownership, but I'm happy so far.

 

wiper blades replacement  costs 19.95 Euro  with free shipping from ev-doc.de 

 

cabin filter replacement costs €29.99 with shipping from https://www.amazon.de/-/en/BASENOR-Tesla-Model-Filter-Replacement/dp/B08KSQD4NK

 

I assume the Brake fluid check costs nothing if you do not need to replace the Brake fluid, which I guess would cost extra with Tesla service.

 

50 Euro for both, sounds a bit less than the 120 Euro from Tesla, but your choice of course

 

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yesterday said:

EVs currently are not for the poor, not sure how long that will take to change, if it every does

"The poor" don't buy new cars. The more interesting question is what happens in the second hand market. Will I be able to buy a 5-year old Tesla in a couple of years for €10K? Then suddenly EVs become a much more realistic option. More likely I would think is that 5-year old Teslas will have retained 75% of their value and the petrol or diesel car you buy today will have plumetted. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now