Head of German navy steps down over Ukraine

120 posts in this topic

A war in Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO, its expansion etc.

 

After 1991 Russia became just another poor and irrelevant third world country like Zimbabwe or Mongolia. This is the reason of rise of Putin to power, he promised to "make Russia great again", where "great" literally means restore the old Russian Empire.

 

There is no Cold War 2 because Russia is not a Communist country and will never again be. Restoration of the Soviet Union does not mean going back to Communism, it means occupying as many former Eastern Bloc countries as possible, that is it.

 

This is the first reason.

 

The second is Putin wants to show his own people that any democratic uprising "like in Ukraine" will result in a war and destruction. He is not afraid of America where he owns properties, neither he is afraid of Europe where his daughter lives. Putin is afraid of his own people turning against him. He might attack Ukraine, and the reason will not be this NATO bullshit you are talking about. The reason will be he is losing popularity and wants to bump it.

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1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

He might attack Ukraine, and the reason will not be this NATO bullshit you are talking about.

 

Then maybe he shouldn't have said he won't attack Ukraine if the U.S. puts in writing that Ukraine can never join NATO.

 

 

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2 hours ago, yourkeau said:

A war in Ukraine has nothing to do with NATO, its expansion etc.

 

After 1991 Russia became just another poor and irrelevant third world country like Zimbabwe or Mongolia. This is the reason of rise of Putin to power, he promised to "make Russia great again", where "great" literally means restore the old Russian Empire.

 

There is no Cold War 2 because Russia is not a Communist country and will never again be. Restoration of the Soviet Union does not mean going back to Communism, it means occupying as many former Eastern Bloc countries as possible, that is it.

 

This is the first reason.

 

The second is Putin wants to show his own people that any democratic uprising "like in Ukraine" will result in a war and destruction. He is not afraid of America where he owns properties, neither he is afraid of Europe where his daughter lives. Putin is afraid of his own people turning against him. He might attack Ukraine, and the reason will not be this NATO bullshit you are talking about. The reason will be he is losing popularity and wants to bump it.

 

12736f808b8a2511036673fe93489ced.jpg.a70

 

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1 hour ago, fraufruit said:

 

Then maybe he shouldn't have said he won't attack Ukraine if the U.S. puts in writing that Ukraine can never join NATO.

 

 

For me, the Ukraine can or should be allowed to join NATO, but never deploy nukes there, and it be written down in an international treaty

 

But Putin wants the Ukraine back under his control, so he will not agree to this

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12 hours ago, yesterday said:

Were as Russia just took parts of Ukraine, without letting people decide what they wanted

From what I remember there was a referendum in parts of the Ukraine (Crimea or Donbas, or both?, can´t remember) and the pro-Russia faction won. The situation isn´t as unambiguous as the media are portraying it. In the Eastern region there are lots of people who identify as Russian and don´t even speak the Ukrainian language. The other day I heard a BBC broadcast in which it was suggested the situation is in some way similar to that in Northern Ireland, where there are also people who want to reunite with Ireland whereas others want to remain a part of the UK.

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10 hours ago, fraufruit said:

 

Then maybe he shouldn't have said he won't attack Ukraine if the U.S. puts in writing that Ukraine can never join NATO.

 

 

It is not a coincidence that local COVID antivaxxers like Putin: he acts exactly like them. After Biden puts in writing that Ukraine never joins NATO, he will find another reason. And then another reason. And then another. The only reason which might stop him that this time it will not be an easy walk in park. Back in 2014 he used Überraschungseffect. If France attacks Germany now it will recapture "historically French" Saarland and Ruhrgebiet in two days. Precisely because Germany does not expect this from an ally. 

 

3 hours ago, jeba said:

From what I remember there was a referendum in parts of the Ukraine

 

Yep, there was a referendum under gunpoint, you're right. It reminds me another referendum.

61f63af991707_Stimmzettel-Anschluss(1).j

 

Actually, a refurendum in 1938 was more fair: at least there is an option to vote "no". In Crimea Anschluss referendum there were two options: Crimea to join Russia, and Crimea to become an independent country. Those who wanted it to remain in Ukraine did not attend this "referendum" anyway.

 

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4 hours ago, jeba said:

From what I remember there was a referendum in parts of the Ukraine (Crimea or Donbas, or both?, can´t remember) and the pro-Russia faction won. The situation isn´t as unambiguous as the media are portraying it. In the Eastern region there are lots of people who identify as Russian and don´t even speak the Ukrainian language. The other day I heard a BBC broadcast in which it was suggested the situation is in some way similar to that in Northern Ireland, where there are also people who want to reunite with Ireland whereas others want to remain a part of the UK.

 

That referendum, you refer to had no legal bias, it was widely accepted as rigged and performed under with a gun. All of which is classic Putin operating procedure, but as every you support the thug here.

 

Crimeans vote overwhelmingly to secede from Ukraine, join Russia - CBS News

 

Crimea referendum: Voters 'back Russia union' - BBC News

 

How Russia Rigged Crimean Referendum (forbes.com)

 

It is on no surprise Russia today, is the only major news source that thinhs it was a fair vote

 

95.7% of Crimeans in referendum voted to join Russia - preliminary results — RT World News

 

 

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There are a number of domestic issues in Russia such as the suppression of free speech lack of a transparent government and people being poorer linked to the increase in the state pension age. There is also the rise of the Oligarchs and blatant corruption so Putin needs a distraction from his domestic problems. He may have miss calculated with the Ukraine though in that the West are taking an interest and despite his believe that the Ukraine is part of a greater Russia, the Ukrainians do think differently and are prepared to stand their ground. Forget the eastern regions around Donetsk, they had been populated over the years by Russians so whilst technically Ukrainian, the population is de facto Russian. The same with the Baltic states, post WW2 Russia had a policy of removing the local population and moving Russians in.

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4 hours ago, jeba said:

From what I remember there was a referendum in parts of the Ukraine (Crimea or Donbas, or both?, can´t remember) and the pro-Russia faction won. The situation isn´t as unambiguous as the media are portraying it. In the Eastern region there are lots of people who identify as Russian and don´t even speak the Ukrainian language. The other day I heard a BBC broadcast in which it was suggested the situation is in some way similar to that in Northern Ireland, where there are also people who want to reunite with Ireland whereas others want to remain a part of the UK.

 

You're totally correct in that it's a very complex situation, but are wasting your time trying to explain it to people who see the world in black and white.

 

Russia/Putin = BAD

US/EU/NATO = GOOD

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6 minutes ago, Eric7 said:

 

You're totally correct in that it's a very complex situation, but are wasting your time trying to explain it to people who see the world in black and white.

 

Russia/Putin = BAD

US/EU/NATO = GOOD

This is correct. That's why you live in the EU and NATO. 

 

If you have zero moral compass then "the situation is complex" for you. 

 

In Geneva Convention, starting a war is a war crime. This was one of the charges at the Nuremberg Trials in 1945-1946. Conspiracy to start a war, and starting a war. These were the two main charges. 

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There are a lot of Russians living in Cyprus.  Those few I've talked to had a more nuanced opinion on Putin than those who are portraying him a dictatorial villain. He seems to enjoy some popularity in Russia.

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1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

It is not a coincidence that local COVID antivaxxers like Putin: he acts exactly like them. After Biden puts in writing that Ukraine never joins NATO, he will find another reason. And then another reason. And then another. The only reason which might stop him that this time it will not be an easy walk in park. Back in 2014 he used Überraschungseffect. If France attacks Germany now it will recapture "historically French" Saarland and Ruhrgebiet in two days. Precisely because Germany does not expect this from an ally. 

 

 

Yep, there was a referendum under gunpoint, you're right. It reminds me another referendum.

61f63af991707_Stimmzettel-Anschluss(1).j

 

Actually, a refurendum in 1938 was more fair: at least there is an option to vote "no". In Crimea Anschluss referendum there were two options: Crimea to join Russia, and Crimea to become an independent country. Those who wanted it to remain in Ukraine did not attend this "referendum" anyway.

 

Why is it that I'm wondering whether you're really completely unbiased?

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10 minutes ago, jeba said:

There are a lot of Russians living in Cyprus.  Those few I've talked to had a more nuanced opinion on Putin than those who are portraying him a dictatorial villain. He seems to enjoy some popularity in Russia.

There are a lot of Russians living in Western Erope and Germany in particular who know which side their bread is buttered.

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49 minutes ago, French bean said:

Forget the eastern regions around Donetsk, they had been populated over the years by Russians so whilst technically Ukrainian, the population is de facto Russian.

Hence the above-mentioned similarity to Northern Ireland.

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8 minutes ago, French bean said:

There are a lot of Russians living in Western Erope and Germany in particular who know which side their bread is buttered.

 

You think that because those people don't live there it means they oppose Russia?

Hmmm, must mean I oppose the UK or the Americans here oppose the US. This forum is literally full of people who left their home country.

 

In any case huge, a huge majority of the Russians who live in Germany are actually ethnic- Germans. Their families fled Germany during the war but came back from Russia later. The number of actual Russians here is comparatively small.

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12 minutes ago, jeba said:

Hence the above-mentioned similarity to Northern Ireland.

 

Not at all similar 

 

Since ever the UK has always said that if the majority of voters in NI want to join with southern Ireland, then the the UK Government will accept it as long as the result is not disputed by international community.

 

Russia according to the international community rigged the vote in Ukraine.

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7 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Russia according to the international community rigged the vote in Ukraine.

 

Bless.

 

You do realise that the Donbas also held a referendum in favour of leaving the Ukraine but Russia refused to accept it.

Explain that.

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55 minutes ago, jeba said:

Why is it that I'm wondering whether you're really completely unbiased?

I am not unbiased. My parents still living in Ukraine, and in case of a war, I will have to organize their evacuation to Israel. 

 

58 minutes ago, jeba said:

There are a lot of Russians living in Cyprus.  Those few I've talked to had a more nuanced opinion on Putin than those who are portraying him a dictatorial villain. He seems to enjoy some popularity in Russia.

This is true. Putin does what most Russians want. And they want the empire back, unfortunately. I guess at some point Russia will become just another fake pacifist entity like Germany, I would be happy when this happens. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Eric7 said:

 

You think that because those people don't live there it means they oppose Russia?

Hmmm, must mean I oppose the UK or the Americans here oppose the US. This forum is literally full of people who left their home country.

 

In any case huge, a huge majority of the Russians who live in Germany are actually ethnic- Germans. Their families fled Germany during the war but came back from Russia later. The number of actual Russians here is comparatively small.

Not what I said, my meaning is that there are a lot of wealthy Russians, and not so wealthy who are enjoying a standard of living that they won't have in Russia, think Oligarchs in London doing a lovely line in money laundering as well as enjoying the high life or in Germany setting up care homes and fraudulently claiming for non existent residents. These people have done well under Putin and won't be happy if it's all put at risk by Putin's policies. As for the ethnic Germans, they first arrived in Russia during the reign of Catherine the Great and since then a number then emigrated to the US and out of those who stayed a large number were sent to the Gulags by Stalin. So there is no love lost between ethnic Germans and the Russians.

 

9 minutes ago, Eric7 said:

 

Bless.

 

You do realise that the Donbas also held a referendum in favour of leaving the Ukraine but Russia refused to accept it.

Explain that.

 

A referendum carried out amongst ethnic Russians who are 48% of the population is bound to back independence from the Ukraine even though the territory is and was under the USSR classed as Ukrainian. As for Russia refusing to accept Donbas leaving, Russia does in fact accept that region as a Russian satellite state and has sent weapons as well as soldiers on 'holiday' there.

 

 

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Just imagine the IRA holding the referendum in NI. 99% would vote "join Ireland" because not a single Catholic attended it.

 

This is the only similarity to NI conflict. However, there is no strict separation between "Russians" and "Ukrainians" in Ukraine. It is neither religious nor ethnic conflict, do not put it in your boxes. It is a conflict between those who want to be able to elect their government and those who don't. 

 

Think more about Switzerland. Why does it exist? Yes, now it is rich. But in 1939 it was a poor agriculture wasteland. Some "Ethnic Germans" were very eager to join the Großdeutsches Reich, but most did not. That's why it exists. 

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