Father thinks he can take child with him in custody battle

[Proton Anna 63]

Dear all,
I am turning to you for help and advice regarding a custody battle for my 5 year old child.
I, Canadian Romanian, am splitting from the father, who is Hungarian. We have been living in Germany for the last almost 8 years, I am going to apply for German citizenship soon. Our child, who is 5, only has Hungarian citizenship, as I did not apply for any other citizenships (he could get both Romanian and Canadian citizenships). He was born in Munich. 

We have had a very friendly split until now and agreed to split custody of our son about 50/50. We live in a small town north of Munich, and I agreed to move out and leave the apartment to my ex so it could be less hassle for him. I found am aparftment about 10 km away so our son would not have to change kindergarten. So far so good. 

Review: 50/50 custody, friendly split, child Hunagrian, mother Romanian, father Hungarian. 

 

This all changed when the owner of the apartment refused to give my ex a new contract for the apartment, and my ex decided he had enough of Germany (he hates Germany, did not integrate, hardly speaks German), and also decided to move to Hungary. Great, I said, you do that. But he also wants the kid. More specifically, his idea is that I send the child every other month to Hungary for one month. That is, one month in Germany, one month in Hungary. I refused. Yeah, I know. Crazy, you may think. 
I made an appointment with the Jungendamt for a consultation about the custody. The woman I spoke with said that if we do not agree with what she will recommend us, we can go to the judge. We probably will, as I know my ex and I know he will probably not agree with anything but his ideas. 

However, recently someone contacted me saying that my ex has been asking advice on facebook forums about taking the kid and leaving to Hungary. Aparently he was told (I do not know by whom) that he has the right to take the child, as the child has Hungarian citizenship while I don't (the only reason why my kid does not have Romanian and Canadian is because I still have not applied for them just yet). He was also told that if he child will change residence in the next 6 months (we will move 10 km away soon), he has the right to take the child with him. Is this really true? Can the judge rule in his favour just because we move 10 km away and because my son and I don't share a common citizenship? 

 

My ex has also threatened me that if I don't give in to his demands, social services/Jungendamt might remove the child from both parents and place him with a forster family until the custody battle gets resolved. Really? Can such thing happen?
WFT! 
I will consult a lawyer, but I need some advice asap. 
Thank you.

Proton Mom

[optimista 5,885]

Calm down and use the search function. There was a similar case not long back and this has all happened before. Also the stuff with the landlord.

 

IANAL but the answers to your questions are basically NO.

 

Clearly your husband is trying to make you panic.

[PandaMunich 16,704]

1 hour ago, Proton Anna said:

However, recently someone contacted me saying that my ex has been asking advice on facebook forums about taking the kid and leaving to Hungary. Aparently he was told (I do not know by whom) that he has the right to take the child, as the child has Hungarian citizenship while I don't (the only reason why my kid does not have Romanian and Canadian is because I still have not applied for them just yet). He was also told that if he child will change residence in the next 6 months (we will move 10 km away soon), he has the right to take the child with him. Is this really true? Can the judge rule in his favour just because we move 10 km away and because my son and I don't share a common citizenship? 

 

My ex has also threatened me that if I don't give in to his demands, social services/Jungendamt might remove the child from both parents and place him with a forster family until the custody battle gets resolved. Really? Can such thing happen?

No, don't worry, it's all nonsense.

 

And that "someone" who contacted you had better provide pdf print-outs as proof of these Facebook discussions, otherwise what they are saying is slander and you had better not repeat it to the Jugendamt without proof.

 

Your child inherited all his parents' citizenships at birth, you not yet having applied for a passport for him under these citizenships is irrelevant.

Your son is Hungarian, Romanian and Canadian.

 

Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_nationality_law#Acquisition_and_loss_of_citizenship

• Children born overseas are Canadian citizens by descent if either parent is a citizen by birth or naturalization in Canada.^[9] Citizenship by descent is limited to only one generation born outside of the country,

Romania: https://www.romaniandocuments.net/romanian-citizenship-by-descent

• You are a Romanian citizen if either of your parents was a Romanian citizen at the time of your birth.

 

*********************************************************************

 

What I said before still applies.

[Proton Anna 63]

1 minute ago, PandaMunich said:

No, don't worry, it's all nonsense.

 

And that "someone" who contacted you had better provide pdf print-outs as proof of these Facebook discussion, otherwise what they are saying is slander and you had better not repeat it to the Jugendamt without proof.

 

 I actually have screen shots and translations of what he said on these forums. 

 

Thank you for the replies. 

[Proton Anna 63]

4 minutes ago, optimista said:

Calm down and use the search function. There was a similar case not long back and this has all happened before. Also the stuff with the landlord.

 

IANAL but the answers to your questions are basically NO.

 

Clearly your husband is trying to make you panic.

 Thank you

[optimista 5,885]

Exhale deeply. Nothing happens that quickly in Germany.

 

Long live Panda !

[maxie 611]

If there is the remotest chance that your husband might try to leave the country with your son, I would make sure he is not alone with him. Or you keep the passport or whatever. Because while he shouldn't be able to leave the country without your permission, that doesn't mean it cannot happen.

The Jugendamt is actually there to help even though it very much depends on the caseworker. Communicate with them, ask them questions etc. 

 

[murphaph 9,814]

Agreed. It's one thing having the law on your side. It's another thing enforcing it. I wouldn't leave the child alone with him if he has suggested taking him to Hungary. That's off the wall stuff. He doesn't need a passport to reach Hungary so that's not enough of a precaution.

[Proton Anna 63]

Thank you for the replies. I need to work, so I am not sure I can be here all the time guarding my son from the father. We still share an apartment together. Even if he does take the kid, I would assume that the police there can apprehend him, as this is the EU, no? 

Or should I just move out of here until he leaves? Where would I go? 

I got the messages he send on this facebook forum, and he did discuss taking the child and just leaving. 

[yourkeau 7,721]

12 hours ago, maxie said:

If there is the remotest chance that your husband might try to leave the country with your son, I would make sure he is not alone with him. Or you keep the passport or whatever. Because while he shouldn't be able to leave the country without your permission, that doesn't mean it cannot happen.

The Jugendamt is actually there to help even though it very much depends on the caseworker. Communicate with them, ask them questions etc. 

 

Hungary is in Schengen, so all is needed for successful kidnapping is a car.

 

However, because it is EU indeed it would be easier to find and arrest him. My advice (as a layperson) is to make it clear to him that if he kidnaps he will be caught and loses all the custody rights forever. He will never be able to see his kids without Jugendamt supervision. Make it clear to him so he will not even try.

[murphaph 9,814]

That sounds like a good idea to me. Tell him as long as he's reasonable things remain amicable but should he ever remove the child, you will ensure he has the least possible legal access in future.

 

You should already be talking to the Jugendamt and showing them the evidence of him talking about kidnapping the child. They should take this seriously, one would hope.

[LeonG 14,810]

I think we already had this discussion on some other thread. Hungary is a party to the Hague convention, however doesn't have good track record returning kids in the past, see https://www.international-divorce.com/2014/12/hungary-and-hague-abduction-convention.html

[murphaph 9,814]

The OP should read your link Leon. Quite sobering unfortunately. Hungary is a rogue state in so many ways.

[Fietsrad 412]

Can the child get a German passport too?

[Proton Anna 63]

I read Leon's link. In my case, I am the mother and my ex would abduct the child from Germany. 

I don't even know where to start about this. He could take the kid to Hunagry when I am at work, does that mean that I have to quit my work and stay home with my kid all the time? I will call Jungendamt on Monday and a lawyer, but if I am in such a big danger of losing my kid, my ex could kidnap the kid anytime in the future as well, as he knows where we will live. Or does it mean I need to leave with the child to some Frauenheim until my ex leaves? WFT!

I also know where he will move in Hungary. 

[PandaMunich 16,704]

3 hours ago, LeonG said:

I think we already had this discussion on some other thread. Hungary is a party to the Hague convention, however doesn't have good track record returning kids in the past, see https://www.international-divorce.com/2014/12/hungary-and-hague-abduction-convention.html

The common point in all these cases:

Hungarian authorities don't return children if the Hungarian mother takes them to Hungary.

I think you will find them much more cooperative if the Hungarian father took the child away from the mother.

[Proton Anna 63]

18 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

The common point in all these cases:

Hungarian authorities don't return children if the Hungarian mother takes them to Hungary.

I think you will find them much more cooperative if the Hungarian father took the child away from the mother.

 In the article from leon's link, there were three cases: 2 of them involved a Hungarian mother taking the kids to Hungary on holiday with the permission of the father and them not returning them, and the third it involved a mother who kidnapped the kids and went with them to Hungary, yet the Hungarian court ruled that they were too young to live without the mother. In my case my ex would have to kidnap the child from Germany without the mother's permission, and it would be the mother that the child would lose.

Nevertheless, if it would to happen to me that my ex would take my kid, I would imagine it would take months until I would get my kid back. My child is 5 years old. I can't imagine something like this. 

I am going to contact Jungendamt. I might have to write myself sick and not work anymore for fear that my ex takes away my kid. I can't believe I am living through this. 

 

[murphaph 9,814]

It's a good question about the German citizenship. Is the child entitled to this? It might help "motivate" the Jugendamt. Hungary is very nationalist and they have a bee in their collective bonnets about how much territory they lost to Romania after WWI. They still go on about this a century later. I wouldn't rely on the Hungarian justice system for anything remotely important (my wife is half Hungarian).

 

I feel for you. This is a dreadful situation to be in. Even talking of the child spending half its time in Hungary and half in Germany is completely unreasonable. 

[fraufruit 42,170]

Have you started the process of getting citizenship for your child yet? 

[Proton Anna 63]

I haven't started the process of obtaining citizenship just yet. I will have 8 years of living in Germany only as of June, so with everything going on at the moment, it was the last thing on my mind. 

I am thinking about asking for full custody from Jungendamt. I have screen shots of my ex discussing leaving with the kid, plus he took the kid's passport.