3G in Restaurants?

4,259 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, Jonny said:

 

No. Because you'll be wearing one so I don't need to. Thanks. 

 

That's not how it works. Masks don't provide 100% protection, especially if an infected person isn't wearing one. As I said:

 

Quote

I think everyone has an obligation to do what they can to help slow it down. The more-vulnerable people can avoid going to restaurants or other high-risk activities, but many have no choice about going grocery shopping. They will wear masks, but it's well-known that masks at the source, the infected person, are far more effective at controlling spread than on the susceptible person. It would be really decent of you to wear a mask in the supermarket.

 

Is it really such a burden for you to put on a mask while grocery shopping? It just seems like common courtesy for the safety of your fellow Bürgers, like using condoms in the AIDS era, or not driving drunk. In these days of continued record-high infection rates, where before we used to cover our mouth when coughing or sneezing, now, in some situations, we cover it all the time. Couldn't you get used to it? I mean really, it seems like the decent thing to do.

 

Having said that, there's an obligation for susceptible people to wear well-fitting N95/FFP2 or better masks, which almost nobody does. Pretty much everyone has a big gap around the bridge of their nose. If your glasses fog up, you're doing it wrong. Use some double-sided tape. And nevermind loose surgical masks, or wearing them below the nose... Here is a chart showing percentage of inward leakage, comparing an FFP2 mask without adjusting it for a good fit, FFP2 adjusted for fit, double-masking with FFP2 + surgical, an FFP2 with double-sided tape on the bridge of the nose, and a surgical mask only. There's a huge difference...

 

625323fc707d9_Figcopy.jpg.31507adb690581

 

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/49/e2110117118

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2 hours ago, sumguy said:

The vaccine only simulates an attack, tricking the immune system into mounting the same defence as it would to the real thing. If that wanes after a few months, blame your immune system, not the vaccine.

 

Is that so? My understanding is that the vaccines are directed solely at the spike protein, whereas natural infection stimulates a broader immune response.

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New Pfizer Vaccine Documents from the FDA Have Just Been Released

"The next batch of Pfizer vaccine documents from the FDA has been produced (11,043 pages), as well as an unredacted version of the post-marketing experience report, available at phmpt.org (http://phmpt.org/pfizers-documents/)"

15 New Pfizer Documents

• fa-interim-publications.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-publications.pdf)• fa-interim-randomization.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-randomization.pdf)• fa-interim-randomization-sensitive.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-randomization-sensitive.pdf)• fa-interim-sample-crf.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-sample-crf.pdf)• fa-interim-sponsor-signature.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-sponsor-signature.pdf)• interim-mth6-adverse-events-sensitive.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-interim-mth6-adverse-events-sensitive.pdf)• interim-mth6-audit-certificates.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-interim-mth6-audit-certificates.pdf)• interim-mth6-demographics.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-interim-mth6-demographics.pdf)• interim-mth6-invest-signature.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-interim-mth6-invest-signature.pdf)• reissue_5.3.6 postmarketing experience.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/reissue_5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf)• fa-interim-audit-certificates.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-interim-mth6-audit-certificates.pdf)• fa-interim-demographics.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-demographics.pdf)• fa-interim-iec-irb-consent-form.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-iec-irb-consent-form.pdf)• fa-interim-invest-signature.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-invest-signature.pdf)• fa-interim-protocol-deviations.pdf

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19 minutes ago, vulturesquadron said:

 

Is that so? My understanding is that the vaccines are directed solely at the spike protein, whereas natural infection stimulates a broader immune response.

 

You're right, the response to the vaccine isn't exactly the same as to the actual virus. Following an infection, the immune response is mostly against the outer part of the virus. Some (but not all) people also develop antibodies to internal parts. More importantly, the current vaccines are based on the original spike proteins, which are significantly changed in Omicron. So they're less effective against it than they were against the original strain. There isn't a simple answer to whether being vaccinated or recovered provides better immunity. There are a lot of variables. I wouldn't be surpised if recovery from Omicron provides better protection against (re-)infection with Omicron than the current vaccines do. Recovery from Delta, not so much.

 

In any case, the point is that immunity to COVID due to circulating antibodies, whether from infection or vaccination, wanes over several months to a level that is no longer able to prevent infection. The complaint that the vaccines don't provide life-long immunity the way the measles vaccine does, and therefore there's something wrong with them, is false, a red herring. Nobody should expect life-long protection through a COVID vaccine. That's not going to happen, due to the nature of the virus and the immune system. It's not a valid criticism of the vaccines.

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3 hours ago, sumguy said:

 

That's not how it works. Masks don't provide 100% protection, especially if an infected person isn't wearing one. As I said:

 

 

Is it really such a burden for you to put on a mask while grocery shopping? It just seems like common courtesy for the safety of your fellow Bürgers, like using condoms in the AIDS era, or not driving drunk. In these days of continued record-high infection rates, where before we used to cover our mouth when coughing or sneezing, now, in some situations, we cover it all the time. Couldn't you get used to it? I mean really, it seems like the decent thing to do.

 

Having said that, there's an obligation for susceptible people to wear well-fitting N95/FFP2 or better masks, which almost nobody does. Pretty much everyone has a big gap around the bridge of their nose. If your glasses fog up, you're doing it wrong. Use some double-sided tape. And nevermind loose surgical masks, or wearing them below the nose... Here is a chart showing percentage of inward leakage, comparing an FFP2 mask without adjusting it for a good fit, FFP2 adjusted for fit, double-masking with FFP2 + surgical, an FFP2 with double-sided tape on the bridge of the nose, and a surgical mask only. There's a huge difference...

 

625323fc707d9_Figcopy.jpg.31507adb690581

 

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/49/e2110117118

Freak

 

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3 hours ago, Jonny said:

So when would you actually say it's OK for people to stop wearing masks ? What's your criteria ?

 

That's a good question. The answer is certainly not "today". My criteria would include the health minister no longer saying things like "The risk of becoming infected now is higher than ever. Please voluntarily wear masks indoors", and the numbers looking a little more like last summer than they do now:

 

screenshot_82.jpg.cbb13413356f5b2efd17a0

 

And I guess, a new more severe and equally contagious variant not showing up.

 

To be honest, if you are vaccinated and recently recovered from Omicron, it wouldn't bother me if you didn't wear a mask for the next month or so. After that...??

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16 hours ago, Jonny said:

The CEO of Pfizer actually said that the current vaccines offer little or no protection against Omicron. 

 

Could it be,  and just think about this,  that Omicron itself protects from serious disease,  hospitalization and death ? It's almost like it's nature's vaccine. 

 

And if you don't believe me,  what about that highly qualified medical doctor Mr. Bill Gates who admitted as much this year in Munich...

 

Don't know why he's sad though 😕

 

 

Why would you listen to what the CEO of Pfizer says? It's his job to sell as many vaccines and boosters, and make as much profit, as possible. He's not a reliable source.

 

In any case though, that's not what he said, see https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pfizer-ceo-vaccine-covid-limited-protection/ He was talking about two doses, and by the time Omicron became dominant, most people who'd had two doses, especially the high-risk groups who got them early, were already six months or more out from their second dose. So they would be looking at the immunity waning to something like 10% effectiveness against infection with Omicron (but much more against severe disease) - see https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01753-y He was saying that a booster would be required for renewed protection against infection. And that's correct, a booster returns it to around 70%, for a while. Exactly the same thing would be true about recovery from a previous infection. Six months later, it would provide "very limited protection, if any" against infection with Omicron. The waning of immunity, and less effectiveness against a mutated virus, is a function of the immune system, not so much the vaccine.

 

But I think Bourla, the Pfizer CEO, was twisting the truth in that interview:

Quote

And we know that the…two [doses] of the vaccine offer very limited protection, if any. The three doses — with a booster — they offer reasonable protection against hospitalization and deaths. Against deaths, I think [the three doses are] very good, and [they provide] less protection against infection.

 

"Limited protection, if any" is about infection with Omicron, several months later. Three doses do offer reasonable protection against hospitalizaton and deaths, but so do two. The way he says it makes it sound like there was little or no protection with only two doses, against hospitalization and death, without actually saying it. Again, it's literally his job to sell boosters.

 

"Omicron itself protects from serious disease,  hospitalization and death" - yes, of course it does. Smallpox too. If you live. What's your point? If you want to protect against infection from Omicron, "getting infected with Omicron" is not a rational strategy. It's a dangerous disease. Far FAR more dangerous than the vaccine. If you're one of the lucky ones who only got a mild case and no ongoing symptoms, then I'm happy for you, and for everyone else in that situation. Bill Gates is sad that so many people, particularly in Africa, have had to aquire immunity through infection with Omicron, with many suffering long COVID, and many thousands of deaths, instead of through the safe and effective vaccine that could have prevented a very large portion of that, if it had have been distributed in time.

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On 2022-04-10, 12:58:07, keith2011 said:

Then let me rephrase it as:-

The current figures for new covid infections, hospital admissions and deaths (from or with covid)  imo suggest that mandatory vaccination with the current vaccines cannot be justified at this time given that they offer little or no protection against the covid variants which are now infecting so many people.

[...] the figures show the vaccines are not protecting people even those who have been recently boosted. Just look in this forum for the number of reports of people getting covid since the start of 2022 despite being vaccinated and compare that to the previous 2 years. I do believe in vaccination but we need something that is much much more effective and lasts a lifetime, 47% after 3 months just doesn't cut it!

 

 

Regardless of any discussion about mandatory vaccination, you're still saying that the vaccines "offer little or no protection against the covid variants which are now infecting so many people." The statement is dangerously misleading; it's simply not at all true. Not by a long shot.

 

The figures show something like a thirty-times higher infection rate than a year ago, so protection against infection with omicron is not so good. Yet despite this, hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and deaths, are slightly lower in absolute numbers, and vastly lower relative to a thirty-fold increase in infections (see the charts above). Some may say this is only because Omicron is milder, and has nothing to do with the vaccines. That's also simply not true. Neither is it true that "the jury is still out". Omicron does produce less severe disease overall, and vaccine effectiveness against hospitalization and death is slightly lower for omicron than for delta, depending on age. But according to a large peer-reviewed study published last month in the Lancet (probably the top medical journal in the world), based on over a million cases of omicron:
 

"Booster vaccination with an mRNA vaccine was highly protective against hospitalisation and death in omicron cases [...] relative protection (vs unvaccinated) against hospital admission with omicron in breakthrough cases remained above 70% (HR <0·3) for all vaccination categories that included a booster dose (adjusted HR for hospital admission 8–11 weeks post-booster vs unvaccinated 0·22 [95% CI 0·20–0·24]"

Comparative analysis of the risks of hospitalisation and death associated with SARS-CoV-2 omicron (B.1.1.529) and delta (B.1.617.2) variants in England: a cohort study

 

Unfortunately, we won't be getting a vaccine that lasts a lifetime, but it's likely there will eventually be substantial improvements in effectiveness against infection. 47% is actually pretty good though, it's around what the flu vaccine is many years. Perhaps there will be a combined annual flu/COVID shot. Hopefully there will be advances in therapeutics, anti-virals that can cure an infection. But currently, the mRNA vaccines are highly effective, safe, and the best way to greatly reduce the risk of hospitalization or death as a result of omicron or any other known variant.

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5 hours ago, paulyg said:

Freak

 

The only freaky thing is his willingness to make such an effort to try to educate those who don't want to be educated.

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6 hours ago, Mr.Bear said:

New Pfizer Vaccine Documents from the FDA Have Just Been Released

"The next batch of Pfizer vaccine documents from the FDA has been produced (11,043 pages), as well as an unredacted version of the post-marketing experience report, available at phmpt.org (http://phmpt.org/pfizers-documents/)"

15 New Pfizer Documents

• fa-interim-publications.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-publications.pdf)• fa-interim-randomization.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-randomization.pdf)• fa-interim-randomization-sensitive.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-randomization-sensitive.pdf)• fa-interim-sample-crf.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-sample-crf.pdf)• fa-interim-sponsor-signature.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-sponsor-signature.pdf)• interim-mth6-adverse-events-sensitive.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-interim-mth6-adverse-events-sensitive.pdf)• interim-mth6-audit-certificates.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-interim-mth6-audit-certificates.pdf)• interim-mth6-demographics.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-interim-mth6-demographics.pdf)• interim-mth6-invest-signature.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-interim-mth6-invest-signature.pdf)• reissue_5.3.6 postmarketing experience.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/reissue_5.3.6-postmarketing-experience.pdf)• fa-interim-audit-certificates.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-interim-mth6-audit-certificates.pdf)• fa-interim-demographics.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-demographics.pdf)• fa-interim-iec-irb-consent-form.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-iec-irb-consent-form.pdf)• fa-interim-invest-signature.pdf
 (https://phmpt.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/125742_S1_M5_5351_c4591001-fa-interim-invest-signature.pdf)• fa-interim-protocol-deviations.pdf

Could you please provide a summary including the proof of casual relationship of adverse events and vaccination as well as a comparison of its risk with that of infection?

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7 hours ago, sumguy said:

Regardless of any discussion about mandatory vaccination, you're still saying that the vaccines "offer little or no protection against the covid variants which are now infecting so many people." The statement is dangerously misleading; it's simply not at all true. Not by a long shot.

 

As my last word on this:- Whilst we may disagree on the cause of the reduction in hospital admissions and deaths at this time none, the less infections have gone through the roof and making people ill with a major economic impact due to absences from work. Mask wearing indoors was most likely more effective at protecting against Omicron than the current vaccines but having relaxed the mask wearing regulations I can't see how it would have been politically possible to introduce mandatory vaccination. As indeed it wasn't.

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My local grocery store put a sign back up regarding masks.  It doesn't say you must but it says please wear a FFP2 mask and keep a distance of 1.5m

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8 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Looks like Mr. Bear has found another winning source.

I was wondering where I'd heard of that source.  Turns out they're the despicable people who persuaded a judge to force the FDA to release all the Pfizer data in months instead of 75 years.  

 

I'm sure herself will agree that they're all idiotic conspiracy theorists.  Who in their right mind would demand transparency from pharma companies.  :ph34r:

 

In response to the FDA’s ludicrous request, PHMPT — a group of over 200 medical and public health experts from Harvard, Yale, Brown, UCLA, and other institutions — filed a lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act demanding that the FDA produce this data sooner. And their efforts paid off: U.S. District Judge Mark T. Pittman issued an order for the FDA to produce 12,000 pages by Jan. 31, and then at least 55,000 pages per month thereafter. In his statement to the FDA, Pittman quoted the late John F. Kennedy: “A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people

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So, 200 doctors versus however many more in the world don't ascribe to their skepticism. 

 

Meh, as previously discussed, their website does not contextualize the reports they post and, more importantly, even a cursory sift through the documents shows that there is little support of or validity to the idea that the vaccine is dangerous. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Looks like Mr. Bear has found another winning source.

 

The turd peddled that group months ago. He just can't accept that actually reading the reports on the PHMP website shows that his feelings are unfounded and simple-minded.

 

It's sad, really. Likely a result of less than perfect English skills. If he's faking those, then it's up to less than perfect thinking skills.

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Now he´s really trawling the depths linking something with Russel Brand in. A man who found his market and exploits the stupidity of his believers. He started off fighting rent increases etc but his channel had pretty piss poor viewership and wasn´t considered relevant so he jumped on the conspiracy theory train and now his viewership has taken off and he's become popular amongst those let's say less intelligent people.

No, I didn´t watch it and that´s the problem with Brand, MrBear and people like them. They could actually have some earth-shattering 100% true info but because they´re basically knuckle-dragging mouth breathers who peddle bullshit anything they say that may be true is ignored.

They denigrate science and scientists, doctors, nurses and so on yet when 1 of those agrees with their viewpoint we´re all of a sudden expected to trust that particular group.

 

 

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