BREXIT positives and negatives

761 posts in this topic

56 minutes ago, Keleth said:

Are you saying it was because the UK was in the EU?

I can´t see any other reason for this than the govt of the time.

 

I am not blaming the EU or a single government or party but you and others here are ignoring the facts which were that real incomes, standards of living and availability of services in the UK were declining from the start of this century. All was not rosy pre brexit!

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

So in what way is this a Brexit benefit.

You´re still going to have foreigners doing the work they´re just going to be better paid.

If no one else wants the job what is the problem with using seasonal workers it has going on well before free movement. Pay them in line with demand and not a pittance because the supermarkets won't pay more for the produce because the customers can't afford prices that give farmers and workers in the supply chain a reasonable living, that cycle needs breaking!

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Just now, keith2011 said:

All was not rosy pre brexit!

 

What a convincing argument! "Brexit didn't cause everything to turn to shit - it was already shit before Brexit"

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1 minute ago, El Jeffo said:

 

What a convincing argument! "Brexit didn't cause everything to turn to shit - it was already shit before Brexit"

 

Nothing like one of your one line responses to enlighten us all - NOT

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Patience with the UK is running out in Germany and France especially. I read somewhere this morning that they in particular want to start discussing "fallback solutions" to the UK's intransigence over the protocol. An opinion piece this morning from the SZ sums up with:

Quote

Manchmal verlangt ein grober Klotz den groben Keil.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/meinung/brexit-nordirland-boris-johnson-zollgrenze-1.5437354!amp

 

The British people are unfortunately going to see what a no deal looks like if they think their government can just ignore the NIP. These populist governments always come a cropper sooner or later. I feel genuinely really sorry for every remainer and even those that didn't bother to vote and indeed to a lesser extent the conned leave voters. For anyone still parroting the "Brexit benefits" line I have zero sympathy. 

 

There are still many in the UK who think the likes of Germany and France would sooner steam roll Ireland out of the single market than suspend the TCA. They are gravely mistaken. Ireland is a bulwark, perhaps the bulwark of liberal democracy in the EU. It has one of the most free presses in the world. The people have voted to liberalise society time and time again. It is the poster child of the European Union. It owes its prosperity largely to membership of the EEC and its successors. And the people are enthusiastically European.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press#/media/File:Press_freedom_2021.svg

 

The liberal democracies that make up the vast bulk of the EU will not abandon a fellow liberal democracy, especially when the less liberal democracies in the EU pose a threat to the democratic order of the union. 

 

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You read the article, John, so why don't you tell us what you think?

 

I'll go first: I don't think there will be a compromise, because a compromise requires both sides to make concessions. According to your article, however the EU seems to be willing to do that very thing, whereas Lord Frost thinks the way forward is to tear up the NIP - which is one of the cornerstones of the Withdrawal Agreement - and start over.

 

It's the international diplomacy equivalent of playing pigeon chess and nothing good will come of it.

 

2 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

Nothing like one of your one line responses to enlighten us all - NOT

 

He said, in a one-line response.

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2 hours ago, keith2011 said:

All was not rosy pre brexit!

Who says it was.

The problem is Brexit accelerated the shit that was hitting the fan.

2 hours ago, keith2011 said:

If no one else wants the job what is the problem with using seasonal workers it has going on well before free movement. Pay them in line with demand and not a pittance because the supermarkets won't pay more for the produce because the customers can't afford prices that give farmers and workers in the supply chain a reasonable living, that cycle needs breaking!

Read what you wrote again.

I´m all for wage rises and people actually earning a decent wage.But the cost of living will go up so really people will not be any better off as in they'll have more money but it will be worth less.Also if wages in this case rise then will the promised land be reached and no foreigners "stealing our jobs"?

 

 

So once again where is the Brexit benefit.

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And if wages rise to a a certain level then any jobs that can be done outside the UK will simply move there. The government can't force factories to open or remain open, when there's a cheaper workforce elsewhere and the goods can be imported without taxes (that's what all these FTA's are about!).

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12 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

The same seasonal  workers who have always done the fruit picking but who, following the major reduction in the GBP to Euro exchange rate post brexit vote and now a need for visas, have found it much less attractive to work in the UK. Up the wages and improve the conditions and they will return to benefit from the improved spending power that will give them at home, plus a greater cost of labour should encourage investment in mechanisation.

Thanks to LeonG for that excellent explanation of inflation reducing debt. 

I forgot about that brexit benefit.

 

Let's follow the brexit wave here, lack of foreign workers for jobs brits normally avoid (that still pay minimum wage) will have the offered salary increased to entice local to do the job. 

This will however prove to be too expensive in the long run so businesses will invest in automation, there-by dumping locals back on unemployment.

This will cause recession due to the loss of that spending power, it would have to, if the bonus is big, so is the loss when it goes.

 

If inflation is that great, why do most countries put a lot of effort in to keeping it down? My student loan went in to negative inflation a while back as the inflation rate dropped so low.

I made a grand total of 50p 

Let's no forget the government have been telling people to save and invest for their retirement. The higher inflation goes the less those savings are worth. Investments may be better at riding any problems but mot people who would have to live off their pension alone may have just put cash aside.  

 

3 hours ago, French bean said:

 If a socialist gov't had suggested subsidising an industry, a number of Tories would be up in arms.

It's been easy to see that the conservatives and the press that support them are happy to just by hypocritical. talking about wages going up after trying to stop any kind of minimum wage coming in (which was an increase for some people). 

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1 hour ago, john g. said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-58871221

This is the latest I have just read. A compromise possible?

 

Aaand it seems we already have an update: former BoJo adviser and man deciding which dumpster he wants to dive into first Dominic Cummings says the Brexit deal was a way to "whack Corbyn" and "of course" the government can break it if it wants to. Because everyone does it.

 

Quote

In a string of tweets, Cummings said the flawed Brexit deal had been a way to get out of the electoral doldrums and “whack [Jeremy] Corbyn”, and “of course” the government should be allowed to “sometimes break deals… like every other state does”.

 

We took over a party on ~10%, worst constitutional crisis in century, much of deep state angling for BINO or 2REF. So we wriggled thro with best option we cd & intended to get the 🛒 to ditch bits we didn't like after whacking Corbyn. We prioritised. Now time for IM2 #Frosty

— Dominic Cummings (@Dominic2306)

October 12, 2021

His remarks have caused alarm in Dublin, where the former taoiseach Leo Varadkar, who negotiated the Northern Ireland protocol with Johnson at a meeting in Wirral in October 2019, said that, if true, they showed the government could not be trusted.

 

No-deal Brexit it is, then - as long as the liars in Whitehall and Downing Street keep lying.

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25 minutes ago, murphaph said:

And if wages rise to a a certain level then any jobs that can be done outside the UK will simply move there. The government can't force factories to open or remain open, when there's a cheaper workforce elsewhere and the goods can be imported without taxes (that's what all these FTA's are about!).

 

Oh come on get real, globalisation with industry moving to places where the labour was cheap has been going on for years, it has been a problem in the EU with jobs going to eastern Europe and Asia and incidently even to a lesser extent to the UK with its lenient employment laws and low wage economy.

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Again, you seem to be making @murphaph's point while claiming to be arguing with him, keith.

 

murphaph says the government's claims that realigning the economy won't be a problem are garbage, because if the jobs get too expensive in the UK, they'll simply move abroad. You countered that he should "get real", because the very thing he says is the obstacle has already been happening for decades. How is that making a counterargument?

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Yeah I'm a bit puzzled too El Jeffo. Keith is rather making my argument for me.

 

The UK simply cannot live in a vacuum and pretend that wages can rise to any level and that prosperity will continue. It won't. We live in a globalised world and Britannia can't stop the world and get off. 

 

More side effects. Now bus services are being cut back. Presumably like the construction industry, there are many Category D licence holders that also hold Category C licences and can get more money driving for the supermarkets all of a sudden:

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/local-news/stagecoach-cambs-bus-services-being-21841906

 

This is going to keep happening. Remember the UK imported its bus drivers from the colonies long before it was part of the EEC. 

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9 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Remember the UK imported its bus drivers from the colonies long before it was part of the EEC.

 

And by Gove, they'll do it again! And those rules-obsessed pencil-pushers in Brussels won't be able to say a word about it! So there!

 

9 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Oh and the UK is completely untrustworthy and is destroying its international reputation:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/13/dominic-cummings-says-uk-always-intended-to-ditch-ni-protocol-brexit

 

Tell me you didn't click my link without telling me you didn't click my link.

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43 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

Again, you seem to be making @murphaph's point while claiming to be arguing with him, keith.

 

murphaph says the government's claims that realigning the economy won't be a problem are garbage, because if the jobs get too expensive in the UK, they'll simply move abroad. You countered that he should "get real", because the very thing he says is the obstacle has already been happening for decades. How is that making a counterargument?

It does not require a counter argument because it is a completely invalid premise. Wealthy high wage economies across the world have seen jobs move to lower paid economies for years, it is not new even for the UK, and those wealthy countries are still wealthy!

Furthermore nobody here has yet responded to explain why the UK was doing so badly while still in the EU,  only your one line opinion that post brexit things are the same shit=shit!:rolleyes:

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12 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

Furthermore nobody here has yet responded to explain why the UK was doing so badly while still in the EU,  

 

 

By what metric? Certainly not GDP.

 

 

UKGDP2000-2018.JPG

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