What's the issue with dual nationality?

280 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, hamogles said:

 

AFD is not a classical right-wing party in that they are not necessarily low tax and pro business but have lots of spending ideas and they managed to attract a lot of dissatisfied SPD voters, especially in the East.

 

 

I think you should go back and read the AfD's elections-program for the past elections, because you are so wrong.   AfD is more pro-rich than FDP, they advocate for reducing taxes to the rich, removing a bunch of social investment, privatising the unemployment insurance (and making the premiums depending on your profession) and reducing pensions, and a few other things that make you rethink it they really are the "Party for the small people" .  The most ironic thing is that most of the AfD base is in the unemployed and pensioners.   It is like they do not read what they are voting for or the blatant racism is more important to them.

 

 

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The AfD voters I have knowingly talked to here are concerned about things like a supposed rise in crime they believe is due to an increase in foreigners. This is supported by Bild etc. AfD election posters play on such fears: most are very vague. This year's "Deutschland aber normal" would suit jeba to a T, suggesting that all real Germans have the same opinions, like automatons (why is that appealing?), but last time round the poster "Neue Deutsche machen wir selber" was everywhere. Foreigners are made out to be criminals and rapists; their message is clear, and it's not aimed at people who are interested in tax.

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On 9/28/2021, 5:47:27, kiplette said:

When we went for dual nationality kids#3 and #4 asked about serving in the armed forces of one country whilst having another national identity. Not a problem - the second country needs to give permission, which with UK and DE is not a problem.

 

Fast forward a couple of years, and kid#3 is happily Bundeswehr bound with no further mention of the UK having a say in the matter, which is kind of funny.

 

Her brother wants to go the other way. So in jeba's nightmare scenario, they will face each other across the battlefield.

Which has been pretty normal throughout history, really. Borders and countries being the human constructs that they are.

 

(quite hard finding this not sung by you-know who)

 

Actually, this might be the way to prevent future wars. When people have loyality to several countries, they know the people living there and will be forever an obstacle against demonizing the citizens of the other country. I think we should actively encourage dual, triple etc  citizenships and actively try to build up loyalty to us many countries possible.

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1 hour ago, yourkeau said:
On 9/30/2021, 8:02:39, catjones said:

 

a distinction without a difference.  the implication is that others who slaughter are untrained amateurs with dull knives.

The implication is that secular people do not fight for their rights as much as religious people do. This is sad.

 

I don't think this is true at all.  All kinds of secular groups (trade unions, human rights advocates, environmentalists, PACs, the list goes on) fight for their Rights.

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21 minutes ago, catjones said:

 

I don't think this is true at all.  All kinds of secular groups (trade unions, human rights advocates, environmentalists, PACs, the list goes on) fight for their Rights.

Yes, but they do not fight enough, and lose. Trade unions are being made irrelevant by companies who hire "self employed contractors" who are in reality employees, but without any protection. Environmentalists? Bought by Gazprom. Human rights advocates? Busy attacking Israel but do not care what is happening right now in Poland (EU external border).

 

If there was any religion who had dual nationality in their books, we would not have needed this discussion. Baha'i faith is the closest to this idea, but they are a small minority (I wonder if there are any in Germany).

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Jeba, I am quite frankly surprised that you as a German have such an uncritical and unthinking approach to the concept of loyality towards ones country. Do I need to remind you of the motto of the SS and where that led to? I always assumed that that past would automatically lead a modern German to question the concept of loyality. I think loyality to democratic institutions is good. I think love of your home is good because it will cause you to care. But loyality to ones country needs qualifications and limitations. I am loyal to Germany as long as its an open and democratic country, for example. Otherwise you are a mindless pawn in the hand of whoever runs Germany.

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2 hours ago, yourkeau said:

Yes, but they do not fight enough, and lose. Trade unions are being made irrelevant by companies who hire "self employed contractors" who are in reality employees, but without any protection. Environmentalists? Bought by Gazprom. Human rights advocates? Busy attacking Israel but do not care what is happening right now in Poland (EU external border).

 

If there was any religion who had dual nationality in their books, we would not have needed this discussion. Baha'i faith is the closest to this idea, but they are a small minority (I wonder if there are any in Germany).

And the fortunes of religions do not ebb and flow over the millennia ?

Pull the other one.

Ask the priests of Jupiter how the get on these days ? Or the Spanish Inquisition. I mean no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition, right ?

Edit:Typo

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4 hours ago, yourkeau said:

In this case, it is not. Kashrut was invented 2000 years ago for people living in a desert without refrigerators and unlimited access to clean water.

I presume you´re talking about the origin of Kosher eating?

I wasn´t,I was referring to you seeming to think that the way Kosher food is slaughtered is the best humane way and the inference other ways were not.

 

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1 hour ago, Namu said:

Jeba, I am quite frankly surprised that you as a German have such an uncritical and unthinking approach to the concept of loyality towards ones country. Do I need to remind you of the motto of the SS and where that led to? I always assumed that that past would automatically lead a modern German to question the concept of loyality. I think loyality to democratic institutions is good. I think love of your home is good because it will cause you to care. But loyality to ones country needs qualifications and limitations. I am loyal to Germany as long as its an open and democratic country, for example. Otherwise you are a mindless pawn in the hand of whoever runs Germany.

 

A country is not the same thing as its government. Being loyal to Germany does not mean uncritically or mindlessly doing as the government tells you (for a start that would mean you would always vote for the people currenty in power - such people do exist, but you would hardly call them patriots by any stretch of semantics).

 

I think being loyal to Germany means being loyal to the people who live there and their values and way of life. I think if Germany should cease to be democratic, then people who are genuinely loyal would stand up for what was right and fight back. Disloyal people would hide or walk away.

 

Ditto for any other country.

 

 

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4 hours ago, yourkeau said:

Here we go again with typical American "Hitler was a socialist". In Europe and Middle East, being right wing has nothing to do with economics. Period.

 

so if voters walk over from the SPD to the AFD but that doesn't change the left/right balance, then either the AFD is more left than you admit or the SPD is more right than you admit?

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44 minutes ago, hamogles said:

Being loyal to Germany does not mean ...

 

 

 

I think for @jeba being loyal to the country means voting conservative.

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1 hour ago, hamogles said:

think being loyal to Germany means being loyal to the people who live there and their values and way of life

and just what would that be?  the people in berlin?  munich?  baumholder?  on farms?  the ones who value investments?  trees?  their job?  people who value traditions?  those who don't?

 

and just how does being "loyal" manifest itself?  voting?  striking?  joining the armed forces?  can you be really loyal and not so much loyal?

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40 minutes ago, catjones said:

and just what would that be?  the people in berlin?  munich?  baumholder?  on farms?  the ones who value investments?  trees?  their job?  people who value traditions?  those who don't?

 

and just how does being "loyal" manifest itself?  voting?  striking?  joining the armed forces?  can you be really loyal and not so much loyal?

 

That would be partisanship.

 

Being loyal means loyalty to those elements of the culture and way of life that define it and make it likeable.

 

This can be a mix of things.

 

It can also be different from place to place and individual to individual. But there will always be a certain intersection of aspects that most people would agree upon.

 

If there isn't then essentially you are saying a country has no defining values. In which case I wouldn't be loyal to it either as I wouldn't see what would be worth protecting on a country level. Such a country would do well to break apart into smaller countries that do have a graspable and justifiable identity.  This is what the Soviet empire did, or the British empire.

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Extreme example here- being loyal or even disloyal to general society / your home nation? What does it mean? Should treason be allowed? A line to draw there?

Sir Anthony Blunt is an extreme example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Blunt

On the other hand, if you are living in an authoritarian country, when is it justified to commit treason to try and bring down such a regime? There are plenty of examples. 

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12 minutes ago, john g. said:

Extreme example here- being loyal or even disloyal to general society / your home nation? What does it mean? Should treason be allowed? A line to draw there?

Sir Anthony Blunt is an extreme example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Blunt

On the other hand, if you are living in an authoritarian country, when is it justified to commit treason to try and bring down such a regime? There are plenty of examples. 

 

Most people who fight for freedom in their country do so out of loyalty and love for that country. Not because they dislike it or it means nothing to them. So yes, treason can be a very loyal thing under certain circumstances. Most countries have in their history people who fought against some oppressive regime, and thus committed treason, but are in hindsight considered heroes, regardless of whether they succeeded or failed.

 

If you didn't care about your country and the plight of the people in it you would be more likely to simply walk away than to attempt to bring about change. Most people don't struggle for things they don't believe in.

 

People can be mistaken or misguided of course. But that's a different discussion. That's why I said that struggle for things they believe in rather than saying, that they struggle for what is right.

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

I think for @jeba being loyal to the country means voting conservative.

That may be so in this case but would you imply voting for a Centre Left or Left or Liberal Government makes a citizen of a country disloyal? 

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On 30.9.2021, 11:52:44, yourkeau said:

I as a public employee swore on the Constitution of Bavaria. It has some funny sentences like "German citizens have the same rights and obligations as Bavarian citizens". 

 

So, what you write is against the Constitution of Bavaria

Nonsense. It says "citizens", not residents, after all.

 

On 30.9.2021, 11:52:44, yourkeau said:

Banning Schechita has nothing to do with animal protection, it is pure antisemitism

BS!

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On 30.9.2021, 12:22:34, yesterday said:

 

Sure why would a real German want to cause impurity of the master race ?

 

What does race have to do with it? Or impurity of it? That´s totally beyond the point.#

 

On 30.9.2021, 12:22:34, yesterday said:

Yet, that same guy, goes to Greece and tells the locals how to behave in a proper way, I bet

How much would you bet on it? I even explicitly said that I won´t apply for a Cypriot passport as I don´t have a sense of loyalty towards Cyprus.

My point isn´t about foreigners living in Germany - it´s about them being allowed to change of norms in a way many locals don´t like.

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On 30.9.2021, 13:46:02, theGman said:

"They" can come over here, plough our fields, stack our shelves, pay taxes and pay into my pension coffers but screw them if "they" want to vote.

It´s not as if they wouldn´t get something for their contributions, is it. They will get unemployment benefits, healthcare and a pension just as Germans. That is fair and I have no problem with that.

 

On 30.9.2021, 13:46:02, theGman said:

Racist much? Every heard of the phrase "taxation without representation"?

Again: What does it have to do with racism? I´m in exactly the situation you described. I pay taxes in Cyprus without having representation (other than by the German embassy). I´m living quite happily with that. Are you saying I should feel racially discriminated against?

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