What's the issue with dual nationality?

294 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, jeba said:

Why would you want German citizenship in the first place if your loyalty is with the UK (provided you get a Niederlassungserlaubnis and all the rights of a citizen except the right to vote)?

You didn't answer my question, does that mean you concede that point?

There are lots of practical and personal reasons why people want dual citizenship.

 

29 minutes ago, warsteiner70 said:

How would the German government 'force' you to give up your UK passport? It's your decision as to whether you apply for German citizenship or not, no-one is forcing you.

Brexit has shown me that people will take on another citizenship if they feel forced into a corner in terms of bureaucracy, but only do so with great reluctance.

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

So as an American would you trust him to put Americans interests first?

 

For me citizenship is not really that important to become PM !, it is just a convenience to make life a little bit easier.

 

For example, I am British, when BREXIT happend, I got an EU passport. This is not because I feel so connected to the EU or one particular country, its just because it makes my life easier, living in the EU to have an EU passport, which was British, then not anymore.

 

But thats just me, I know some people who are strongly nationalistic, who want to remain in Germany, but did not want take the option of an EU passport, so they went the way of a residence permit, even though they could have got a German passport.

 

For me, its not which passport you hold that should prevent you becoming a leader in the country you are in, but your passed record, ie if you have been seen marching in the street for kicking foreigners out or banning gay rights or protesting against black people, the list goes on, then this would be much more important in deciding if they are allowed to be a leader than, if they took a passport for convince or not.

 

But it sounds to me, that you think its the passport that matters...

 

 

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Once again, I could give up my US citizenship and become just German, jeba. This would be FORCED upon me. But, I do want the right to vote here, as I live here, and my family are also German (though my traitorous disloyal kids are German and American). However, this would not turn on a loyalty switch in my head. On the contrary, I could resent the state for making me choose to renounce the right to visit, and possibly care for, my parents, who live in a country with difficult immigration rules, and where a former citizen doesn't have an easier route to residency (as is the case with Germany). So, your claim of loyalty is hollow. It doesn't work like that. Don't forget that spies are also often citizens of the state on which they spy for another state, of which they are not a citizen. Most of us AREN'T spies, of course, but the point is that tying loyalty to citizenship is simpleminded and populist. Any cases of disloyalty in times of war, or with spying, can be dealt with by the justice system.

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haha fancy allowing your passport being the definition of what you are and what you believe in.  Hello 1930, Jeba wants his world back.

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While living in Canada, I applied for Canadian citizenship.  Even though my heart will always be in my birth country Iceland, I did not see it as a loyalty problem to take dual citizenship.  At the time I applied for it, I had no plans to leave Canada and I wanted to be able to stay there forever.  I had a great uncle who immigrated to Canada with his family.  Due to misguided loyalties to Iceland, they never applied for Canadian citizenship.  Their kids grew up and one of their sons later started using drugs and had problems with the law.  At age 50, with 40 yrs. in Canada as a PR, they deported him back to Iceland.

 

Now on the other hand, it took them so long, 2,5 years, to process my citizenship that by the time I got the letter to take the test, I was actually leaving.  However, by that time I figured I've earned it and getting it means I can always come back if I want to so I still went through with it.  I am however not considering applying for a German passport to lose my other two.

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If loyalty comes in to it, I'd say Mrs Margret T taught me that my first loyalty should be to myself, my family and people I care about.

I could then maybe add on country after that but, even then, any loyalty I have is not blind.  

 

Blind loyalty is usually a bad thing, it's almost always bad for the person giving it, it's quite useful if you are on the other side of that equation though.

 

As a man once said "that's the spirit, and don't forget, we will be right behind you".

And as another man said just after "yes, 24 miles behind us"...

 

 

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Talking about loyalty, I definitely think an elected representative should first and foremost be loyal to the people he or she was elected to represent.

 

Loyalty conflicts might include such matters as receiving donations from lobbying groups or caving to the party whip.

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4 hours ago, yesterday said:

 

For me, its not which passport you hold that should prevent you becoming a leader in the country you are in, but your passed record, ie if you have been seen marching in the street for kicking foreigners out or banning gay rights or protesting against black people, the list goes on, then this would be much more important in deciding if they are allowed to be a leader than, if they took a passport for convince or not.

 

 

 

I don't think anybody in Germany marched against black people or for kicking foreigners out or against gay people. Definitely nobody within even the remotest striking distance of power.

 

But quite a few people from a party who will probably now come to power very soon did march for censorship and for shutting other people up.

 

So maybe it's good to check who is the greatest threat to democracy right now. 

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5 hours ago, anne k said:

You didn't answer my question, does that mean you concede that point?

No, your question didn´t seem like a real question to me though. Of course, nobody can really check how loyal or not you are. But if you have a feeling of loyalty towards your country you may be less inclined to give up your citizenship in order to get another one. That was my point.

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

But if you have a feeling of loyalty towards your country you may be less inclined to give up your citizenship in order to get another one. That was my point.

It is an absurd statement. Why would anyone be inclined to give up citizenship? 

 

It is like being forced to sell my property in Ukraine to be able to buy a property in Germany because apparently owning properties in multiple countries is not good. Doesn't it sound absurd? 

 

Citizenship is not only about the right to come back at any time. And not only about the right to vote. It is also about consular protection abroad (mostly in third-world countries). And now this: if you have dual citizenship, you lose the right to consular protection while in both countries. E.g., a German journalist with both German and Turkish passports will be imprisoned by Erdogan, and Germany can do nothing about it because German citizenship does not apply in Turkey (and vice versa). 

 

So, it has not only benefits. 

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3 hours ago, jeba said:

 But if you have a feeling of loyalty towards your country you may be less inclined to give up your citizenship in order to get another one. That was my point.

What would be the point of trying to put people off? If they were actually up to no good, they wouldn't let their loyalties get in the way of taking on German citizenship if that was required. Why else would you want to filter people out? (Yes, that is also a real question.)


I would describe myself as having been "not bothered" about becoming German until it was necessary due to Brexit. So not a fervent supported of the German dream. But actually, on becoming German, it felt great. I feel like I am entitled to be here, and part of the country. During these elections, I went and voted for a party I think would do Germany some good. I helped count the votes and there were quite a few other Germans (presumably not all recent Germans like me) who scrawled some very rude things on their ballot papers. And turnout was rubbish in my area. By that measure I'd say I'm a better German than many, despite originally being "not bothered" and even now still wanting the best for my family in the UK.

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5 hours ago, LeonG said:

I had a great uncle who immigrated to Canada with his family.  Due to misguided loyalties to Iceland, they never applied for Canadian citizenship.  Their kids grew up and one of their sons later started using drugs and had problems with the law.  At age 50, with 40 yrs. in Canada as a PR, they deported him back to Iceland.

 

 

Similar happened to an old friend of mine just a few years ago.  She and her family moved to Canada about 30 years ago when the children were small. They never applied for Canadian citizenship, so, when the youngest child got caught up in drugs, he was deported “back” to Ireland, a place he didn’t know.  He landed in on some family, but they couldn’t cope with him, heaven knows where he is now.

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25 minutes ago, Tap said:

Similar happened to an old friend of mine just a few years ago.  She and her family moved to Canada about 30 years ago when the children were small. They never applied for Canadian citizenship, so, when the youngest child got caught up in drugs, he was deported “back” to Ireland, a place he didn’t know.  He landed in on some family, but they couldn’t cope with him, heaven knows where he is now.

 

My cousin who was deported didn't stop the drugs and overdosed a couple of years later. 

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2 hours ago, yourkeau said:

It is an absurd statement. Why would anyone be inclined to give up citizenship? 

Not at all. Just think of Americans who want to escape taxation. But that´s not my point. My hope is that some would not want to give up their citizenship just in order to get the German one.

 

2 hours ago, yourkeau said:

It is like being forced to sell my property in Ukraine to be able to buy a property in Germany because apparently owning properties in multiple countries is not good. Doesn't it sound absurd? 

What does that have to do with citizenship? Buying property doesn´t give you a vote, after all.

 

47 minutes ago, anne k said:

Why else would you want to filter people out?

Because I don´t want people with different backgrounds, norms and values (as compared to the locals) to be able to vote. It´s already annoying enough that there are e.g. exceptions from animal protection laws (slaughtering animals) or tolerance for genital mutilation (circumcision) for certain groups. Plus I feel it´s not for immigrants to tip the scales in elections. Just think of the latest election results with the CDU/CSU and SPD coming out neck on neck. It may well have been a different outcome, had there been less immigrants able to vote.

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Maybe us immigrants should be getting a tax discount to make up for the fact that although we live and work here and contribute to the country we don't get a say in how it's run. I do get to vote in a country that I have no connection to, other than what it says on my passport. And what it says on my passport is only really significant because that's the only ID I have; a passport from my home country would probably be more convenient, but much more significant would be if I could vote in my home country. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

Because I don´t want people with different backgrounds, norms and values (as compared to the locals) to be able to vote.

:lol: you are a hoot :D

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15 minutes ago, anne k said:

:lol: you are a hoot :D

Well, I´m not surprised of not getting much support for dewatering a pond from the fish in it.

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12 hours ago, jeba said:

Well, I´m not surprised of not getting much support for dewatering a pond from the fish in it.

I didn't think you were asking for (or needed) support, either :) just hoping for some interesting discussion and thought you had a serious argument.

 

On election day here in Dresden, there was an afternoon football match - Dynamo Dresden v. Werder Bremen, and Dresden won 3:0. There was a bit of a lull in voting during the match, then the trams full of fans started to arrive, and our polling station was right near the stop, so we had a few waves of cheery voters dressed in yellow. The fact they were out and about anyway probably got a few more proud native Dresdners out and voting blue (in some cases to match their condition!). My area is pretty low on Menschen mit Migrationshintergrund (i.e. the total population of foreign citizens and naturalised and German-born "foreigners"), at about 7%, and many want to keep it that way. (You'd love it! Or maybe you are indeed a Saxon?) So to some extent, your argument that fewer immigrants = more right-wing voters works. But ...

 

12 hours ago, jeba said:

Just think of the latest election results with the CDU/CSU and SPD coming out neck on neck. It may well have been a different outcome, had there been less immigrants able to vote

If you mean that the SPD would have got fewer votes, how do you explain Mecklenburg? They may have got in a candidate mit Migrationshintergrund, but the SPD's win isn't because of the high proportion of foreigners there: Mecklenburg has the lowest percentage in Germany.

 

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16 hours ago, jeba said:

Because I don´t want people with different backgrounds, norms and values (as compared to the locals) to be able to vote.

I lived in Germany for 7 years, and I don't think you represent the values of the locals. Also, in contrast to you, I as a public employee swore on the Constitution of Bavaria. It has some funny sentences like "German citizens have the same rights and obligations as Bavarian citizens". 

 

So, what you write is against the Constitution of Bavaria and that of Germany, and you cannot get naturalized in Germany if you publicly state something like this, neither you can be employed in any public job. But you were born here, so you are allowed to write unconstitutional nonsense. 

 

16 hours ago, jeba said:

It´s already annoying enough that there are e.g. exceptions from animal protection laws (slaughtering animals) or tolerance for genital mutilation (circumcision) for certain groups.

Why all Germans are so afraid to write "Jews and Muslims"? 

 

Banning Schechita has nothing to do with animal protection, it is pure antisemitism (and also poor education in anatomy, but this comes together). 

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6 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

I lived in Germany for 7 years, and I don't think you represent the values of the locals.

 

He's lived on Cyprus for many years (decades?) and is about as out of touch with modern German society as you can get.

 

6 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Why all Germans are so afraid to write "Jews and Muslims"? 

 

Despite his many faults, jeba has learned to not say the quiet part out loud.

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