What's the issue with dual nationality?

271 posts in this topic

38 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Or after 30 + years of being together are we all one big united Germany ?

No, that´s a pie in the sky. There are massive differences in attitudes and socioeconomic conditions between East and West Germany. Just look at the election results of AFD and the Linke and compare them between the "Beitrittsgebiet" and the West.

 

41 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Would you say a guy who has lived in Munich for the last 30 + years, but came to Munich from the old East, cannot be trusted and should be locked up, because at one time in his life he was on the wrong side of the border

What makes you think I´d say that? But let´s use a diffent example like former Serbia and Albania. Is it really unimaginable that in case of a war between the two countries a dual national of both would have a conflict of interest?

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3 minutes ago, Fritsen said:

For 99.99999999999% of people, there will never be a 'conflict of loyalties

That´s a ridiculous claim in my view.

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

 Often there are conflicts of interest between countries. In extreme cases they even go to war with each other. What side should a dual national serving as a soldier for in such case?

 

It's a personal conflict in that case, which the person in question has to sort out with him/herself. The extreme possibilty of war certainly shouldn't stop the possibility of people claiming dual citizenship. 

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Imagine having a world view that is so paranoid that dual nationality as a concept cannot even be considered in case countries go to war en masse and begin drafting private citizens into said war ... and those citizens cannot be trusted. Like, sorry, that is a super warped mindset. 

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5 minutes ago, jeba said:

No, that´s a pie in the sky. There are massive differences in attitudes and socioeconomic conditions between East and West Germany. Just look at the election results of AFD and the Linke and compare them between the "Beitrittsgebiet" and the West.

Which is why you think they cannot be trusted and therefore cannot be a Real German

 

But there are differences of people all around you even within Germany. We should accept some differences otherwise we will be looking over are shoulder all the time. IF someone has livid in Germany for a long time etc then its right to give them a chance

 

5 minutes ago, jeba said:

 

What makes you think I´d say that? But let´s use a diffent example like former Serbia and Albania. Is it really unimaginable that in case of a war between the two countries a dual national of both would have a conflict of interest?

 

No its not unimaginable, but you cannot protect against everything and it buggers up many peoples lifes while trying to exclude the very rare situations 

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4 minutes ago, Fritsen said:

Imagine having a world view that is so paranoid that dual nationality as a concept cannot even be considered in case countries go to war en masse and begin drafting private citizens into said war ... and those citizens cannot be trusted. Like, sorry, that is a super warped mindset. 

 

Absolutely. It's the mindset that put Americans of Japanese and German and Italian descent into detention camps during WWII. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Italian_Americans

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When we went for dual nationality kids#3 and #4 asked about serving in the armed forces of one country whilst having another national identity. Not a problem - the second country needs to give permission, which with UK and DE is not a problem.

 

Fast forward a couple of years, and kid#3 is happily Bundeswehr bound with no further mention of the UK having a say in the matter, which is kind of funny.

 

Her brother wants to go the other way. So in jeba's nightmare scenario, they will face each other across the battlefield.

Which has been pretty normal throughout history, really. Borders and countries being the human constructs that they are.

 

(quite hard finding this not sung by you-know who)

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And if you're that paranoid about foreigners pretending to be German, there are already examples in other countries where restrictions are in place for dual nationals, see: Australia's legislation regarding elected political officials and dual nationality. 

 

If you're really terrified that someone might have 'dual loyalties', then place limits on those professions where it could be a *potential* issue, i.e. politics, military, intelligence services, etc., and don't burden average people with your paranoia. 

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1 hour ago, yesterday said:

IF someone has livid in Germany for a long time etc then its right to give them a chance

I wouldn´t deny them that chance - provided they give up their old cititenship (again with exceptions in cases of hardship).

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1 hour ago, bramble said:

 

It's a personal conflict in that case, which the person in question has to sort out with him/herself. The extreme possibilty of war certainly shouldn't stop the possibility of people claiming dual citizenship. 

That was only one (extreme) example. My point remains: you shouldn´t be able to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. Imagine e.g. Boris Johnson being a German citizen as well. Would you trust him to hold  Germany´s interest closer to heart than the UK´s?

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1 hour ago, Fritsen said:

And if you're that paranoid about foreigners pretending to be German, there are already examples in other countries where restrictions are in place for dual nationals, see: Australia's legislation regarding elected political officials and dual nationality. 

 

If you're really terrified that someone might have 'dual loyalties', then place limits on those professions where it could be a *potential* issue, i.e. politics, military, intelligence services, etc., and don't burden average people with your paranoia. 

If there was a kind of citizenship which wouldn´t allow those holding dual one to vote most of my problem would be solved.

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3 minutes ago, jeba said:

That was only one (extreme) example. My point remains: you shouldn´t be able to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. Imagine e.g. Boris Johnson being a German citizen as well. Would you trust him to hold  Germany´s interest closer to heart than the UK´s?

 

I think you have a pretty warped imagination. 

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36 minutes ago, jeba said:

That was only one (extreme) example. My point remains: you shouldn´t be able to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. Imagine e.g. Boris Johnson being a German citizen as well. Would you trust him to hold  Germany´s interest closer to heart than the UK´s?

Well actually Boris is an American citizen as well

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3 hours ago, Fritsen said:

If you're really terrified that someone might have 'dual loyalties', then place limits on those professions where it could be a *potential* issue, i.e. politics, military, intelligence services, etc., and don't burden average people with your paranoia. 

In Israel multiple citizenships, especially from hostile countries, can secure you a job at the Mossad. Because, well, their agents do not enter Iran or Syria on Israeli passports.

 

But what the best intelligence service in the world can understand about loyalty, Stammtisch Besucher in Scheißenburg an der Isar know much better!

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9 hours ago, jeba said:

So what if there is a conflict of interest between 2 countries you feel both loyal towards? Think e.g. Brexit or economic interests? Or how within the EU burdens should be shared?

How would losing British citizenship make me lose any loyalty towards the UK? My family still live there, and I still grew up there, whatever it says on my passport.

Maybe I'd feel resentful at having been forced to lose it by the German government, and my loyalties to the UK would grow even stronger.

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11 hours ago, yesterday said:

Well actually Boris is an American citizen as well

So as an American would you trust him to put Americans interests first?

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9 hours ago, anne k said:

How would losing British citizenship make me lose any loyalty towards the UK? My family still live there, and I still grew up there, whatever it says on my passport.

Maybe I'd feel resentful at having been forced to lose it by the German government, and my loyalties to the UK would grow even stronger.

 

Why would you want German citizenship in the first place if your loyalty is with the UK (provided you get a Niederlassungserlaubnis and all the rights of a citizen except the right to vote)?

 

12 hours ago, bramble said:

I think you have a pretty warped imagination. 

Thinking of possible conflicts of interests doesn´t take much imagination. E.g. think of burden sharing within the EU. Say you´re a citizen of one of the countries that benefit from wealth transfers and at the same time of a country which pays more to Brussels than it gets back. Or about distribution of refugees? E.g. as a Greek or Cypriot citizen you´d probably want to take say Hungary more of them whereas in your capacity as a Hungarian citizen you might dislike that (and vote accordingly). Or as citizen of a poor African country  you might want to make it easier for your fellow African countrymen (and your friends and family) to immigrate to Germany than you´d want it in your capacity as a German citizen and taxpayer.

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10 hours ago, anne k said:

Maybe I'd feel resentful at having been forced to lose it by the German government, and my loyalties to the UK would grow even stronger.

 

How would the German government 'force' you to give up your UK passport? It's your decision as to whether you apply for German citizenship or not, no-one is forcing you.

 

Even after Brexit there is nothing stopping you getting a residency permit and renewing this for as long as you want to remain in Germany. Lots of people from the US, Aus, NZ, India, etc. and other places outside of Europe have been doing this for years.

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