What's the issue with dual nationality?

271 posts in this topic

15 minutes ago, bramble said:

She's definitely German. Her father was dual British/German at the time of her birth. I'll have to look into the Filipino possibility when I have more time. Not urgent. Thanks for the links.

 

Ah, then yea, definitely German then too. Same as my kid.

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I guess pray for a SPD/Green/something coalition then! Even if it takes a couple of years to get anything passed, that'd be about the time I'd be eligible, and I just don't want to give up my current passport.

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10 hours ago, Fritsen said:

I guess pray for a SPD/Green/something coalition then!

 

um, I, didn't bring politics into this thread...  but if the something is anything other than the CDU or FDP (super unlikely) then get ready to open your pocket books and start learning Russian and/or Chinese...

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3 hours ago, DoubleDTown said:

 

um, I, didn't bring politics into this thread...  but if the something is anything other than the CDU or FDP (super unlikely) then get ready to open your pocket books and start learning Russian and/or Chinese...

 

Lord ...

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Well it seems the the SPD came out on top according to the exit polls (205 vs 194):

https://www.thelocal.de/20210917/election-2021-what-an-spd-led-coalition-could-mean-for-foreigners-in-germany/

 

That article links to exactly the topic of dual citizenship:

https://www.thelocal.de/20210903/explained-where-do-germanys-political-parties-stand-on-dual-nationalities-and-citizenship/

 

Of course, as it's election day, today, such topics like 'who did you vote for' come up. Apparently for some 8.7 million people, some 12% of the people would be able to vote, are not allowed as they are 'only' residents. Had a conversation with a neighbour this morning, who is married to a German lady, has 2 small kids and moved back to Germany last year. Due to having to give up his original nationality, he will never become a German citizen, yet will likely live here for 30+ years, grow old, retire, have grandkids, but will never be a citizen.

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On 9/25/2021, 2:38:20, Fritsen said:

Lord ...

 

like I said, I, didn't bring politics into this thread...

 

but something to keep in mind, the electorate is pretty evenly split.    if one counts the FDP as on the "right" and the Greens as on the "left", the "right" got just a tiny smidgeon more votes (CDU + FDP + AFD = 45,9%) than the "left" (SPD + Linke + Greens = 45.4%).   

 

don't let SPD exceeding the CDU lead to an assumption viewpoints of the middle-left are more widely accepted than those of the middle-right 

 

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On 25.9.2021, 01:29:14, Fritsen said:

I just don't want to give up my current passport.

Which shows which country you have more loyalty for. Which is fine, but in my view you shouldn´t get a German one (with few exceptions) if your loyalty lies with your home country. I´m in a similar situation. Next year I could apply for a Cypriot passport but as I have feelings of loyalty for Germany, but none for Cyprus, I won´t - even though I could keep my German one.

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Why does it always have to do with loyalty? Maybe Fritsen just wants access to the other country. As do I. I want to be able to see my family whenever I choose, and not have to go on a visa that could be rejected for any reason. And, it's also just stupid to give up a passport unless there are huge disadvantages to keeping it. Unless, of course, this abstract notion of loyalty is important to you. Germany doesn't give a fuck about you, and the United States doesn't give a fuck about me. They want your labor, taxes and votes. That's it.

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1 hour ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

Why does it always have to do with loyalty? 

The fact that you're asking this already shows that you shouldn't be granted German citizenship but rather permanent residence. In my view at least. Then you still wouldn't have to worry about a visa but wouldn't have a vote. Granted, there should be residence permit that can't be revoked ( unless you commit a crime).

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6 minutes ago, jeba said:

The fact that you're asking this already shows that you shouldn't be granted German citizenship but rather permanent residence. In my view at least. Then you still wouldn't have to worry about a visa but wouldn't have a vote. Granted, there should be residence permit that can't be revoked ( unless you commit a crime).

 

So if I live here for 30 years and I commit a crime I should be expelled?  Welcome to fascism.

 

Your archaic views are exactly why German immigration is stuck and can't move forward, it is a shame because it use to be very modern and pragmatic.    Hopefully things will move forward if SPD gets in power.

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21 hours ago, jeba said:

Which shows which country you have more loyalty for. Which is fine, but in my view you shouldn´t get a German one (with few exceptions) if your loyalty lies with your home country. I´m in a similar situation. Next year I could apply for a Cypriot passport but as I have feelings of loyalty for Germany, but none for Cyprus, I won´t - even though I could keep my German one.

 

This view is very old fashioned. People can feel loyalty to more than one country, as in my case having been brought up in two countries (Germany and Britain), steeped culturally and historically in both  and bilingual. 

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Yep, my son was born with three citizenships. What's the problem? What we understand as passports and citizenship are actually fairly new concepts. Go back 200 years and there weren't any. The more people with multiple citizenships the less likely it is that base nationalism can take hold.

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21 minutes ago, bramble said:

 

This view is very old fashioned. People can feel loyalty to more than one country, as in my case having been brought up in two countries (Germany and Britain), steeped culturally and historically in both  and bilingual. 

So what if there is a conflict of interest between 2 countries you feel both loyal towards? Think e.g. Brexit or economic interests? Or how within the EU burdens should be shared? As much as I like it if in my Cypriot village  with a few hundred residents  gets a new and nicely plastered pedestrian crossing which will be built, creating a few jobs for a few weeks,  it annoys me that 27% of it will be funded by German taxpayers (funded by the EU). Because my loyalty is not with Cyprus but with Germany.

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43 minutes ago, jeba said:

So what if there is a conflict of interest between 2 countries you feel both loyal towards? Think e.g. Brexit or economic interests? Or how within the EU burdens should be shared? As much as I like it if in my Cypriot village  with a few hundred residents  gets a new and nicely plastered pedestrian crossing which will be built, creating a few jobs for a few weeks,  it annoys me that 27% of it will be funded by German taxpayers (funded by the EU). Because my loyalty is not with Cyprus but with Germany.

 

This is as ridiculous as someone from Munich walking on the streets of Bremen and being totally unhappy that they are building infrastructure there with the Bayern tax money.

 

Do you think German financial success is because of isolated Germany?   It does not have anything to do with Germany being a top exporter of the world and having a giant Single Market where they can sell their products without any extra costs and at the same time access to cheap labor?   You could actually argue that Germany's financial success comes at the cost of the sweat and blood of the poor countries of the Union.

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56 minutes ago, jeba said:

So what if there is a conflict of interest between 2 countries you feel both loyal towards? Think e.g. Brexit or economic interests? Or how within the EU burdens should be shared? As much as I like it if in my Cypriot village  with a few hundred residents  gets a new and nicely plastered pedestrian crossing which will be built, creating a few jobs for a few weeks,  it annoys me that 27% of it will be funded by German taxpayers (funded by the EU). Because my loyalty is not with Cyprus but with Germany.

 

This is bullshit. Obviously you have no idea what it feels like to have two identities. There are many children who grow up with two or maybe even more identities. No doubt many kids of TT members also. 

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5 hours ago, kaffeemitmilch said:

Why does it always have to do with loyalty?

 

Because @jeba is very afraid that foreigners will move in and vote for SPD. Hi wrote about this in the past.

 

When you naturalize in Germany, you do sign declaration of loyalty to German Constitution. If you are born German, you can be Reichsbuerger loyal to non existing Deutsches Reich, or you can be an ISIS terrorist, go to war in Syria, and then come back and do terror attacks here in Germany, and still keep the passport. For jeba, German terrorist are ok, because they are loyal to Germany.

 

3 hours ago, Krieg said:

So if I live here for 30 years and I commit a crime I should be expelled?  Welcome to fascism.

You are being dramatic. Israel allows deportation of its citizens abroad to avoid criminals coming here and hiding from prosecution. Of course, it does not work the way of "international arrest warrant - deportation", there is a court process in-between.

 

Google Malka Leifer: a pedophile wanted by Australia for multiple sex offenses against minors. She fled the country and naturalized in Israel. It took a decade of court processes to deport her to Australia. 

 

If Germany cancels this rule, too, and allows revocation of citizenship for members of recognizes terror groups (Canada already does this), maybe there will be more public support for dual citizenship.  For a simple crime (non violent) even a permanent resident of Germany cannot be deported.

 

P.S. I am not in Germany anymore, but if I did naturalize, I wouldn't have voted for the Gazprom party.

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4 hours ago, Krieg said:

So if I live here for 30 years and I commit a crime I should be expelled?  Welcome to fascism.

Maybe you should look up what fascism actually means. What´s wrong with getting rid of criminals (obviously I´m not talking of those who parked wrongly)?

 

47 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Because @jeba is very afraid that foreigners will move in and vote for SPD.

That´s only part of the reason. And an undue truncation of my argument. Giving immigrants the right to vote is inherently carrying e.g. the risk that they vote for parties in favour of losening immigration rules.

 

2 hours ago, bramble said:

 

This is bullshit. Obviously you have no idea what it feels like to have two identities. There are many children who grow up with two or maybe even more identities. No doubt many kids of TT members also. 

Indeed, I only have one identity - and I doubt I´ll ever change it. And claiming the argument is bullshit doesn´t make my point such. Often there are conflicts of interest between countries. In extreme cases they even go to war with each other. What side should a dual national serving as a soldier for in such case?

 

58 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

If you are born German, you can be Reichsbuerger loyal to non existing Deutsches Reich, or you can be an ISIS terrorist, go to war in Syria, and then come back and do terror attacks here in Germany, and still keep the passport. For jeba, German terrorist are ok, because they are loyal to Germany.

Not really. I´d be in favour of deporting those, too. Maybe we could buy a bit of Siberia from Putin, so we can deport them to there. Just as Brits deported their criminals to Australia.

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33 minutes ago, jeba said:

 

Indeed, I only have one identity - and I doubt I´ll ever change it. And claiming the argument is bullshit doesn´t make my point such. Often there are conflicts of interest between countries. In extreme cases they even go to war with each other. What side should a dual national serving as a soldier for in such case?

 

So, lets say Russia decides to invade parts of Germany. Now 40 years ago, East Germany was kind of part of Russia, USSR and all that.

 

Would you say a guy who has lived in Munich for the last 30 + years, but came to Munich from the old East, cannot be trusted and should be locked up, because at one time in his life he was on the wrong side of the border ?, maybe he was forced to have a Russian passport at one time. This makes no sense to me....

 

Or after 30 + years of being together are we all one big united Germany ?

 

If you can accept that, why can you not accept, an american living in Germany for a long time an be trusted with a German passport aswell ?

 

33 minutes ago, jeba said:

 

 

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5 hours ago, jeba said:

So what if there is a conflict of interest between 2 countries you feel both loyal towards? Think e.g. Brexit or economic interests? Or how within the EU burdens should be shared? As much as I like it if in my Cypriot village  with a few hundred residents  gets a new and nicely plastered pedestrian crossing which will be built, creating a few jobs for a few weeks,  it annoys me that 27% of it will be funded by German taxpayers (funded by the EU). Because my loyalty is not with Cyprus but with Germany.

 

Do you hear yourself? Yikes. I don't feel loyalty to any state. Wtf does that even mean? It's a very old-fashioned world view, IMO. For 99.99999999999% of people, there will never be a 'conflict of loyalties'. I can see this being an issue when it comes to politicians, military, BND, etc., but ... for the average person there is never going to be any 'conflict of interest' that negatively affects any of the states that issued the passports. 

 

 

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