What's the issue with dual nationality?

294 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, alderhill said:

Not true, as @engelchen says.

Agreed.  My hubby is a former German citizen who forfeited by way of naturalizing as a US citizen 40+ years ago.  His German is excellent and bureaucrats have always treated him quite nicely.  He worked over here for several years in the 80s without difficulty, and having former German citizenship actually made it easier to retire in his birth state of BW, in 2019, as a third country national.  He has been offered a quick pathway to get his German citizenship back.  Keeping the US citizenship is doable, and involves applying under the exception rules.  He’s still mulling over whether or not it’s worth it.

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Here's a link which might help to clarify the issue (in English):

https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/EN/topics/migration/staatsang/Doppelte_Staatsangehoerigkeit_Mehrstaatigkeit_en.html

 

9 minutes ago, shadowname said:

 

my wife's sister is in this situation. she applied for uk cizizenship aeons ago, but apparently never informed the german authorities of her new citizenship. For about 30 years it didn't matter, but now with Brexit she has remembered her German citizenship and is unsure whether she is still actually a German citizen. She hasn't renewed her ID or passport in all those years and she says this probably means her citizenship has expired. But surely it could be that she just never travelled and thus didn't need these documents?

 

She has probably lost her German citizenship - though according to this website she : https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/service/konsularinfo/staatsangehoerigkeitsrecht#content_1

Quote

 

Former Germans who have lost their German citizenship by acquiring a foreign citizenship on application (section 25 (1) StAG) because they failed to apply for permission to retain their German citizenship beforehand may, under certain conditions, reacquire German citizenship if they continue to have close ties to Germany (section 13 StAG). You can find more information on this on the website of the Federal Office of Administration.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

 

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I agree with @bramble that her German citizenship is likely gone.  And I also believe that maintaining close ties will make a difference in getting it back.  If you have a compelling story, as my husband does, and your German skills are strong, it makes a difference.  And of course, where you are applying, and who staffs the office, will be a factor too.

 

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1 minute ago, BethAnnBitt said:

I agree with @bramble that her German citizenship is likely gone.  And I also believe that maintaining close ties will make a difference in getting it back.  If you have a compelling story, as hey husband does, and your German skills are strong, it makes a difference.  And of course, where you are applying and who mans the office will be a factor too.

 

 

Yes, but now she might have to choose between German and British citizenship now that the UK is no longer a member of the EU. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, engelchen said:

Stateless? :blink: Germans forfeit German citizenship by applying and receiving another citizenship without a Beibehaltungsgenehmigung. The former German would still have the new citizenship (see §25 StAG).

 

OK. Above you wrote "apply" in bold so I assumed you explicitly meant that the act of applying was enough to potentially lose German citizenship. It makes sense you can only lose it once another citizenship has been received.

 

Still, mental. Funny Germans.

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48 minutes ago, bramble said:

Yes, but now she might have to choose between German and British citizenship now that the UK is no longer a member of the EU. 

 

Now I remember where my belief came from. Exactly this. What's to stop Germany stripping me of my citizenship now that the UK has left the EU?

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39 minutes ago, theGman said:

Now I remember where my belief came from. Exactly this. What's to stop Germany stripping me of my citizenship now that the UK has left the EU?

If you didn’t have to renounce under the rules in place when you applied then you are home free.  

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1 hour ago, theGman said:

 

Now I remember where my belief came from. Exactly this. What's to stop Germany stripping me of my citizenship now that the UK has left the EU?

 

You misunderstand. You were granted dual citizenship when Britain was still in the EU. The woman in question has missed that opportunity. Germany won't strip you of your citizenship unless there are severe reasons. 

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6 hours ago, CincyInDE said:

I see what you did there. nice. 

 

Freudian slip? lol, but I like it too! Actually, even more shameful to admit... I am so used to using a German layout keyboard for work that when I switch back to a proper corn-fed American one, my umlaut keystroke game is off.

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My husband, like me, has been here for over 25 years and still prefers a QWERTY keyboard.  And uses one for work, unlike me.  Not sure how he manages.  I love the way my handy can switch and do English, German and French (which is really rusty) spell and to some extent grammar check.

 

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15 hours ago, bramble said:

You misunderstand. You were granted dual citizenship when Britain was still in the EU. The woman in question has missed that opportunity. Germany won't strip you of your citizenship unless there are severe reasons. 

 

Sorry, I should have made myself clearer. I understand the rules and how they were applied to myself and the other cases on here.

 

My point was that it was discussed in the Brexit Einbürgerung threads and I was led to believe that, after the Nazis treatment of peoples citizenship's, that it was enshrined in German law somewhere that citizenship couldn't be removed. I was clearly wrong on this. Apparently, on a daily basis, the state is stripping Germans around the world of their citizenship (often without the person even knowing). Protection of German citizenship is not as sacrosanct as I once thought. So what's to stop it being stripped from me at some point in the future? Only needs a small tweak of the existing laws. My status as a German citizen seems suddenly a bit more vulnerable to me than it did this time yesterday.

 

I didn't realise that when we were all rushing to get citizenship before Brexit happened that Germans on the UK side were rushing to do the same.

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6 minutes ago, theGman said:

 

Sorry, I should have made myself clearer. I understand the rules and how they were applied to myself and the other cases on here.

 

My point was that it was discussed in the Brexit Einbürgerung threads and I was led to believe that, after the Nazis treatment of peoples citizenship's, that it was enshrined in German law somewhere that citizenship couldn't be removed. I was clearly wrong on this. Apparently, on a daily basis, the state is stripping Germans around the world of their citizenship (often without the person even knowing). Protection of German citizenship is not as sacrosanct as I once thought. So what's to stop it being stripped from me at some point in the future? Only needs a small tweak of the existing laws. My status as a German citizen seems suddenly a bit more vulnerable to me than it did this time yesterday.

 

I didn't realise that when we were all rushing to get citizenship before Brexit happened that Germans on the UK side were rushing to do the same.

 

Listen, it's only logical that before you apply for another citizenship you inquire first what the rules are about dual citizenship in your country of origin and also the country where you naturalised. If people don't do that then it's their own fault if they suddenly find out that their original citizenship no longer applies. So, if you want to add another citizenship onto your British and German one, you now know that you first have to apply for Beibehaltungsrecht with the German authorities, which might or might not be approved. It's your choice. 

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On 20/09/2021, 10:17:45, jeba said:

E.g. a conflict of loyalities. Imagine e.g. McAllister, a former Prime Minister of (I think) Niedersachsen who was a dual German/UK citizen  having to negotiate a Brexit- related deal with the UK. Which country's interets would be closer to his heart?

I don’t think you need to have a dual citizenship to have conflicting loyalties . Having family in a country or having lived there yourself or just being enthusiastic about that country are far more likely to lead to conflicting loyalties than a piece of paper in your pocket .

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18 minutes ago, hamogles said:

I don’t think you need to have a dual citizenship to have conflicting loyalties . Having family in a country or having lived there yourself or just being enthusiastic about that country are far more likely to lead to conflicting loyalties than a piece of paper in your pocket .

What about no loyalties at all ^_^ ? There are a lot of people who are basically non-nationalists who couldn't give a hoot about 'patriotism and loyalty'. Blind nationalism is horrible, and a lot of us know it and stick to being rational about the benefits and pitfalls of citizenship. I'm sure no state wants such people as citizens. The state needs blindly proud people to maintain cohesion and legitimacy, and these are exactly the people who do not want dual citizenship to be allowed.

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2 hours ago, bramble said:

 

Listen, it's only logical that before you apply for another citizenship you inquire first what the rules are about dual citizenship in your country of origin and also the country where you naturalised. If people don't do that then it's their own fault if they suddenly find out that their original citizenship no longer applies.

 

It's not logical to me. I have many family members with dual citizenship (some with three). A bit of googling would leave me to believe that Germany is one of only a few western countries where this is the case.

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9 minutes ago, theGman said:

 

It's not logical to me. I have many family members with dual citizenship (some with three). A bit of googling would leave me to believe that Germany is one of only a few western countries where this is the case.

 

Having multiple citizenship from EU countries has not been a problem from a long time.  Been born with multiple citizenship with non-EU countries was a big problem once you reached adulthood but it has been slowly changing (you had to choose).    Acquiring German citizenship by naturalisation when you are a non-EU is the problem, it is mostly not accepted and you have to quit your non-EU citizenship, but there are a few exceptions, but it is not easy.    Germans acquiring non-EU citizenship have to apply for permission to keep the German one, which is normally much more easy to get than the other way around.

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If at birth you automatically have two nationalities you are a permanent dual citizen and do not have to choose between German and the other in this case.   

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1 hour ago, snowingagain said:

If at birth you automatically have two nationalities you are a permanent dual citizen and do not have to choose between German and the other in this case.   

 

Not so fast.   If the other citizenship is non-EU you might still have issues if the kid has no German parent.   AFAIK the SPD has been the only one really pushing to improve the situation, first they managed that the decision was pushed from 18 to 21 y/o and the latest thing is that you can keep the German citizenship ONLY if the kid grew up here.  There are some rules to define "growing up here", you can Google them, IIRC you need to live here for at least eight years, study here primary and/or secondary school for at least six years and to have some sort of German school graduation papers (Schulabschluss or Berufsausbildung).

 

At least it was like that last time I checked it.

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