What's the issue with dual nationality?

294 posts in this topic

22 hours ago, jeba said:

That basically newcomers shound´t be able to tip the scale when the locals are in disagreement is another.

 

Who better to be deadlock breakers. That's the basis of UNFICYP, for example.

 

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To give an example relevant to Cyprus, where I live: There was a referendum about reunification of the Turkish occupied part of the island and the areas under the control of the government (in which the Greek Cypriots voted against it). Should strangers like myself  who have no idea of the background and the emotions involved have been able to tip the scale? I don´t think so.

 

If you have been living in Cyprus long enough to acquire citizenship, then your one vote on the matter is as valid as any Nth generation local. Political enfranchisement based on such a 'nebulous' concept as loyalty is so 19th century. It is not a zero sum thing besides, and your exceptional 'what if' examples still don't sell the concept. Your professed cluelessness on your adopted home is your problem (clearly among many), but don't project that on to others. 

 

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Or a fictitious example: had there been a referendum on German reunification - should immigrants have been allowed to tip the scale (and btw I´m not sure about what such a referendum would have resulted in)?

 

Ah, there's your classic xenophobic take. If you live somewhere long enough (for Germany: 8ish years give or take) and jumped through all the hoops so that you acquire citizenship, why is your prior (and still-held) citizenship any special limit on your ability to understand and make decisions on local matters? It isn't. Locals don't always agree on things, and don't always make "the best" informed decisions either (plenty of evidence there). I don't see why those born outside should be arbitrarily excluded (after a long enough waiting period, some proof of understanding language, civics, etc.). You can't really express any other reason either, from what I've read, apart from literal xenophobia, Blut und Boden. 

 

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44 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

Don't worry, you've said enough already. We've got your number.

 

And that number is 1488.

 

:ph34r: 

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1 hour ago, alderhill said:

If you have been living in Cyprus long enough to acquire citizenship, then your one vote on the matter is as valid as any Nth generation local.

I disagree. I´m only 1 year away from being able to acquire citizenship but I have no sense of loyalty/belonging for/to Cyprus and like Storydale would always think of the US first, I´d always think of Germany first when voting. Just to give another example of conflicting interests: Imagine e.g. a person with German/Greek dual citizenship when it comes to the Greek demands for additional war reparations. Should he support the German claim (that this issue has been settled once and for all) or the Greek one (that it´s still an open question)?

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Do all Germans support the German government's position? Do all Greeks support the Greek government's position? If they don't, should they be stripped of their citizenship for treason or what? Think about what you're saying here.

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That is indeed a contentious issue but both Germans and Greeks will have different views on this. Not all Germans agree with it and not all Greeks disagree with it.

The background:

 

https://www.dw.com/en/greece-makes-fresh-wwii-reparation-claims-from-germany/a-57102886

 

 I am British, don't have Greek nationality and in all my 8 years here NO Greek has ever asked me to get the Elgin Marbles returned to Greece or even offered an opinion on it.

 

I would personally be in favour of it ( though , on the other hand , I'm pretty sure they wouldn't look after them properly😖 )

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23 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Do all Germans support the German government's position? Do all Greeks support the Greek government's position? If they don't, should they be stripped of their citizenship for treason or what? Think about what you're saying here.

Exactly. I know a Greek/German dual citizen who grew up in Greece, went to university in Germany, and is now a permanent resident of the US.  I would trust him to think it through.

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21 hours ago, jeba said:

As I said before: It´s bad enough that this is correct. It doesn´t mean though you should add to the problem.

 

not sure how you know there's a "problem".  since only bonafide candidates are on the ballot (write-in's not included) there was enough support to get them there.  I don't see a "problem" with that, do you?

 

since the law doesn't not require an IQ test, history exam or loyalty oath to vote. your comments come across as a self-appointed arbiter of eligibility which is the very thing democracies abhor.   

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8 hours ago, cb6dba said:

If you're that bothered, why did you leave Germany?

How long have you been away?

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, jeba said:

I disagree. I´m only 1 year away from being able to acquire citizenship

Well that answered at least one question from the ones I posted that you seemed to have tried to dodge.

 

I think I also know why, you've been away for what, 6 years? I flew through the citizenship test, add those 6 missing years and i'd say there's a chance that, compared to me, you would be the person with different views than the locals have now.

If you came back, why should they let you vote?

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2 hours ago, john g. said:

That is indeed a contentious issue but both Germans and Greeks will have different views on this. Not all Germans agree with it and not all Greeks disagree with it.

The background:

 

https://www.dw.com/en/greece-makes-fresh-wwii-reparation-claims-from-germany/a-57102886

 

 I am British, don't have Greek nationality and in all my 8 years here NO Greek has ever asked me to get the Elgin Marbles returned to Greece or even offered an opinion on it.

 

I would personally be in favour of it ( though , on the other hand , I'm pretty sure they wouldn't look after them properly😖 )

Being British we should probably keep our noses out.

We've been all over and we were not always welcome...

 

I'm just waiting for us Brits to want reparations from Rome..

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cb! Fortunately for me, I can pose as a fan of Lord Byron! It goes down a treat on Crete/ in Greece!😂

Loads of streets named after him and I tell those who care ( none!) my old university ( UCL in London ) was built using Ancient Greece's buildings as an inspiration!

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For all those giving jeba a hard time ( me included?), let us not forget the issue of acceptable patriotism for Germans. They have a hard time. My German partner Nicole doesn't always have it easy here. She is of the post-war generation. I remember a Greek bloke here who - seconds after meeting her as she introduced herself as a German from Hamburg - asked her: " aren't you ashamed to be German?"

 

Come on, man. 

And there is a certain type of " shame " attached to being an Englishman ( rather than being Welsh, Scottish or Irish ) - but only if you read the right or wrong books. Or magazine articles.

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2016/01/why-are-so-many-left-embarrassed-patriotism

 

Nobody should be ashamed of where they come from. Or put up with insults because you are from country A B or C.

Each individual has his or her own story in life- wherever you are from.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, john g. said:

For all those giving jeba a hard time ( me included?), let us not forget the issue of acceptable patriotism for Germans. They have a hard time.

 

I don't think jeba had any issues showing his brand of patriotism when he announced that according to his opinion immigrants shouldn't be allowed to vote.

 

 

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Evening, Leon!👍

I think this is complex. I wonder if people in Indonesia, Mexico or even Iceland think like jeba. My guess is ... I don't know...

 

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Just thinking that countries/states are rather a new concept. Historically. And there are "countries" that are not recognised. Like Kurdistan. I think most or many, are actually not that concerned what state they are citizens of. Look at Europe, borders have changed so many times. The pride of country was a thing around 1880, if I remember rightly. For heavens' sake. People have been migrating for ever. Who to say who belongs where? My ancestors came from Sweden, Norway, Finland and Belgium. That is as far as I know, but who knows where they came from originally? What I mean is: we are all kind of clannish, or most of us. Maybe the actual country we are told we live in doesn't matter that much. Since it may change. Where I live in Sweden, the area used to be part of Norway, but then Norway was taken over by Denmark. And then after wars, it got to be Swedish. So nationality is rather arbitrary. Yes. OK, I've had a couple.-_-Just my two öre.

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Sure new counties and states are a modern concept (except for the UK, last invaded 1066, I think ), so why has it changed ?

 

My guess is that it is much easier to travel these days, so a lot more people try to swap countires for a better life etc. and of course a lot of natives of the new country complain that there are just too many and it destroys the original style of life and they do not like it.

 

Whats right, not sure there is a right answer, just depends on how you feel

 

For me, I was riding through Garmisch the other day, a nice old Bavarian town, quiet beuatiful in its own way  then you pass the new  muslim mosque on the way into town, for me it looks out of place in the nice Bavarian town, guess the locals think that as well, but maybe its right that we accept new things, which kinda destroys the original feeling of the town.

 

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2 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Whats right, not sure there is a right answer, just depends on how you feel

What people need to remember is being born in whatever country you are born in is purely and simply luck there is nothing else to it.

 

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12 hours ago, LeonG said:

I don't think jeba had any issues showing his brand of patriotism when he announced that according to his opinion immigrants shouldn't be allowed to vote.

 

No, I don´t. But I never said immigrants shouldn´t be allowed to vote. I said it dual citizenship should not be allowed and it should be harder to acquire the right to vote. Which isn´t the same.

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49 minutes ago, yesterday said:

why has it changed ?

One of the reasons is because nowadays residence comes with tax-funded benefits and the right to vote and change the rules and norms.

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6 minutes ago, jeba said:

No, I don´t. But I never said immigrants shouldn´t be allowed to vote. I said it dual citizenship should not be allowed and it should be harder to acquire the right to vote. Which isn´t the same.

 

yes, but you will never really state, which reasons people should be allowed to dual ( or more ) citizenship and which restrictions you would place on people, to stop people being able to vote even if they are citizens in national elections

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16 hours ago, murphaph said:

Do all Germans support the German government's position?

If it was like that my concerns would be unfounded in the first place as immigrants wouldn´t be in a position to tip the scale.

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