What's the issue with dual nationality?

283 posts in this topic

Given the topic comes up in the latest election discussions, maybe someone could explain to me the basis on why the German state insists on giving up your original citizenship to obtain German Citizenship?

 

In my case, as a British guy, this requirement is a non starter. No way would I consider this. Travel to and from my country of birth then becomes as a foreigner. 

 

The only exception, forced on the German state, are EU citizens.

 

If you live, long term, in two countries, whats the issue with being a citizen of both? 

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1 hour ago, scook17 said:

The only exception, forced on the German state, are EU citizens.

How is this "forced" on the German state?

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3 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

How is this "forced" on the German state?

Maybe OP means - forced by the German state?

OP-no problem with dual citizenship while we were part of the EU. Post Brexit- different rules.

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It was forced on Germany by an EU court ruling. Germany used to only allow dual nationality for French citizens as a sort of "sorry for the war" thing. A non-French EU citizen brought a case against Germany and the court sided with the plaintiff. Germany was given the choice of extending dual citizenship to all EU citizens or removing the option for the French. It decided to (grudgingly) do the former.

 

 

 

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I thought Schröder introduced it to win votes of people of Turkish descent, the greens were in favor too. Quite likely there are several reasons that do not exclude each other.

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11 hours ago, scook17 said:

If you live, long term, in two countries, whats the issue with being a citizen of both?

E.g. a conflict of loyalities. Imagine e.g. McAllister, a former Prime Minister of (I think) Niedersachsen who was a dual German/UK citizen  having to negotiate a Brexit- related deal with the UK. Which country's interets would be closer to his heart?

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They're just stuck in the past. I suppose the majority in many countries that have dual citizenship also think that one can only be the citizen of a single state. I definitely know Americans that don't even want to contemplate leaving the country for the outside world where the hunger games are a reality.

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On 9/20/2021, 9:54:53, Fietsrad said:

I thought Schröder introduced it to win votes of people of Turkish descent, the greens were in favor too. Quite likely there are several reasons that do not exclude each other.

 

I thought it was the opposite, the only ones really pushing for dual citizenship by naturalization for everyone is the SPD.  The CDU/CSU has opposed to it, I assume they think the brand new citizens will unbalance the voting scale against them.  They wrongly assume that most foreigners tend to the left.   That's in my opinion wrong, because plenty of Turkish here are very conservative.

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On 20.9.2021 10:17:45, jeba said:

E.g. a conflict of loyalities. Imagine e.g. McAllister, a former Prime Minister of (I think) Niedersachsen who was a dual German/UK citizen  having to negotiate a Brexit- related deal with the UK. Which country's interets would be closer to his heart?

Both maybe, he could stage a comeback.

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1 hour ago, Fietsrad said:

Both maybe, he could stage a comeback.

You can always require, as many countries do, that one renounce all other nationalities in order to hold certain jobs or run for public office. This is not a consistent reason to be against dual citizenship.

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On 9/19/2021, 10:33:00, scook17 said:

 

 

If you live, long term, in two countries, whats the issue with being a citizen of both? 

 

yep, those were the good old days  ....

 

When I arrived in Germany, 89, you just had to live in Germany for a number of years and apply to be German and that was it, I think :)

 

Over the years, just like all most countries its become harder and harder to get German citizenship, like German tests, knowledge of the German way of life etc, of course that was when GB was in the UK, so it was allowed for me to get the German citizenship.

 

People will complain more now that he should not get citizenship if his German is not up to it, just like in the UK.

 

It not about how long you have lived somewhere to be a citizen its about proving you are good enough to become a citizen

 

Its gone that way 

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Good enough and rich enough and lucky enough. I am very pleased that I was good enough etc.

 

No-one knows what might happen in the future or even soon after 9/26.

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On 9/19/2021, 11:33:00, scook17 said:

If you live, long term, in two countries, whats the issue with being a citizen of both? 

Loyalty paranoia, mostly shared by the conservative side of the political spectrum. The liberal parties support dual citizenship.  

 

A German friend of mine has acquired Israeli citizenship without losing the German one. Israel has an interesting procedure to make this happen: when you apply for Aliyah (due to being Jewish), you get permanent residency rights, and then after 3 months in the country you become a full Israeli citizen unless you sign a refusal paper. Since you were not explicitly applying for foreign citizenship, under German law you do not lose a German one. 

 

P.S. Also the descendants of Holocaust survivors can apply for a German passport without the requirement to revoke Israeli nationality. 

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4 minutes ago, yourkeau said:

Since you were not explicitly applying for foreign citizenship, under German law you do not lose a German one. 

 

Well, just to be clear, once you have German citizenship, they cannot take it away from you. If you go on to collect multiple citizenship around the world afterwards, they cannot stop you. The only thing they can do is withhold giving you citizenship in the first place.

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1 hour ago, theGman said:

 

Well, just to be clear, once you have German citizenship, they cannot take it away from you. If you go on to collect multiple citizenship around the world afterwards, they cannot stop you. The only thing they can do is withhold giving you citizenship in the first place.

 

WRONG! That is NOT true!

 

Germans who apply for another citizenship* without first obtaining permission (Beibehaltungsgenehmigung) AUTOMATICALLY lose their German citizenship.

 

*Germans are allowed to obtain the citizenship of another EU country or Switzerland without forfeiting German citizenship. 

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4 hours ago, theGman said:

 

Well, just to be clear, once you have German citizenship, they cannot take it away from you. If you go on to collect multiple citizenship around the world afterwards, they cannot stop you. The only thing they can do is withhold giving you citizenship in the first place.

 

Not true, as @engelchen says.

 

I knew an ex-German citizen who had 'fled' (GDR) just as the wall was coming down. He was a fresh teenage sailor, and this was his freighter's first trip outside Eastern Bloc borders. He fled at the first opportunity, got asylum. Travelled all over, lived in a few countries, never returning to Germany, and eventually ended up in Canada. Lived there for the next 15 years or so, and acquired Canadian citizenship. He never told the German side, and once his passport expired, he by then had Canadian passport, so didn't bother to renew the German either. 

 

Later, he took a volunteer job in Brazil, ended up living there for a couple years. Met a local lady, had a child, and thought to introduce them to the aging German grandparents. Went in to the German embassy to get a new German passport, and they discovered his black, wicked truth: that he was Canadian too!! On the spot, they asked him to decide, and he chose Canadian (which he said he never wanted to give up), so they served him "you are no longer a citizen!" papers.

 

When I met him here in Germany, he was now living here, and had a temporary work visa on his Canadian passport and had to go through the Aliens line at the airport, deal with the Ausländerbehürde, etc. which was a bit of a mindfuck for all involved, but he loved telling stories of flabbergasted German bureaucrats. He could probably get his German citizenship back if he wanted, but that's a process to, and not without losing Canadian again.

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Mental. I thought I'd heard here several times that once you got it you were safe. Especially in reference to the whole Shamima Begum debacle. I thought it was part of German law or some such shit.

 

3 hours ago, engelchen said:

 

WRONG! That is NOT true!

 

Germans who apply for another citizenship* without first obtaining permission (Beibehaltungsgenehmigung) AUTOMATICALLY lose their German citizenship.

 

*Germans are allowed to obtain the citizenship of another EU country or Switzerland without forfeiting German citizenship. 

 

Wouldn't that leave someone potentially stateless?

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2 minutes ago, theGman said:

 

Wouldn't that leave someone potentially stateless?

 

Stateless? :blink: Germans forfeit German citizenship by applying and receiving another citizenship without a Beibehaltungsgenehmigung. The former German would still have the new citizenship (see §25 StAG).

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, alderhill said:

On the spot, they asked him to decide, and he chose Canadian (which he said he never wanted to give up), so they served him "you are no longer a citizen!" papers.

 

Under the new rules, there is no decision. A German citizen receives Canadian citizenship and automatically ceases to be German (regardless of whether or not the German authorities knows that the person is no longer German).

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, engelchen said:

 

WRONG! That is NOT true!

 

Germans who apply for another citizenship* without first obtaining permission (Beibehaltungsgenehmigung) AUTOMATICALLY lose their German citizenship.

 

*Germans are allowed to obtain the citizenship of another EU country or Switzerland without forfeiting German citizenship. 

 

my wife's sister is in this situation. she applied for uk cizizenship aeons ago, but apparently never informed the german authorities of her new citizenship. For about 30 years it didn't matter, but now with Brexit she has remembered her German citizenship and is unsure whether she is still actually a German citizen. She hasn't renewed her ID or passport in all those years and she says this probably means her citizenship has expired. But surely it could be that she just never travelled and thus didn't need these documents?

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1 hour ago, alderhill said:

 

 

 

I knew an ex-German citizen who had 'fled' (GDR) just as the wall was coming down. He was a fresh teenage sailor, and this was his freighter's first trip outside Eastern Bloc borders. He fled at the first opportunity, got asylum. Travelled all over, lived in a few countries, never returning to Germany, and eventually ended up in Canada. Lived there for the next 15 years or so, and acquired Canadian citizenship. He never told the German side, and once his passport expired, he by then had Canadian passport, so didn't bother to renew the German either. 

 

 

 

i know a German who was born in Baden Württemberg and grew up there but was sent to live with his aunt in Saxony as a teenager when his mother fell ill. just as he was there, the Berlin wall went up and he found himself unable to go home. I think the matter was complicated by his mother's illness and nobody else being able or willing to take care of him. He considered himself a West German prisoner of the East Germans and later, as an adult, made two attempts to  get into the West, but was caught on both attempts. This resulted in time in prison plus a lot of harassment by the Stasi. Seeing they were harassing him anyway he turned into a bit of a lose cannon and said exactly what he thought at every opportunity, which meant more time in prison.

 

Seeing speaking his mind had become a bit of a thing with him, he continued to do so after the wall fell and became a bit of a free speech hero and so continued to be harrassed. A fascinating character. I'm trying to encourage him to write his memoirs. 

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