Recognition of divorce

[LimeGreenJelly 22]

2 minutes ago, RenegadeFurther said:

 

Germany is under no obligation to accept a marriage certificate from Denmark. The Standesamt is also aware that people avoid German bureaucracy by getting married in Denmark.

 

why do they accept a foreign marriage certificate, but not a divorce certificate.

this makes no sense.

[murphaph 9,669]

Don't listen to RF. He's just angry and his national pride has taken a battering over Brexit. He takes every possible opportunity to have a go at me for the having the temerity to call the UK out for what it has become. None of this has anything to do with your case. You can safely ignore the rubbish he's posting.

 

A marriage in Denmark will be accepted in Germany. Does RF think that a Danish married couple moving here suddenly become single in the eyes of German law lol.

[karin_brenig 685]

ok - time to clarify this mess just a little bit...

 

There is an international treaty, called the "Hague Convention", that many countries signed onto - including Germany, and Denmark (I believe). 

 

This treaty basically says: if you are legally married, or divorced, in one of those participating countries, all the other countries will recognize that too. 

 

So far so good - the perceived "problem" here is, how the "recognition" works in those participating countries. 

In some places (for example Las Vegas, NV) it may be sufficient to simply say "I'm divorced" - and they'll take your word for it.
In other places, like Germany, you have to prove your legal state of being "married" or "divorced" in some other country by producing certain additional documents. 

 

To prove (in Germany) that we were legally married (in Las Vegas, NV), my husband and I had to produce a notarized and translated "Apostille" accompanying our marriage certificate from Las Vegas.

We chose this route, as it looked easier (and a lot quicker) than proving that my husband had been divorced (in the US) before getting married to me (in Germany).

 

So, for OP's situation, if Denmark accepts that you are free to marry - because it may be easier to prove that you are divorced - and you get legally married in Denmark - then you would have to bring a notarized and translated apostille along with your marriage certificate to be recognized as married in Germany. Done.

 

Now, after that - living in Germany - you will simply have to show marriage certificate from Denmark together with Apostille - every time that you need to prove you're married. You can save yourself the trouble of talking to any German Standesamt, or providing any additional documentation. 

[RenegadeFurther 2,393]

10 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Don't listen to RF. He's just angry and his national pride has taken a battering over Brexit. He takes every possible opportunity to have a go at me for the having the temerity to call the UK out for what it has become. None of this has anything to do with your case. You can safely ignore the rubbish he's posting.

 

A marriage in Denmark will be accepted in Germany. Does RF think that a Danish married couple moving here suddenly become single in the eyes of German law lol.

 

There was a guy here a few years ago who got divorced in India and married in Denmark. The Standesamt refused to accept the marriage certificate because his divorce was not recognised in Germany.

 

I am amazed you bought Brexit to this thread. Get out, have some fresh air. This obsession can really not be doing you any good.

[karin_brenig 685]

5 minutes ago, RenegadeFurther said:

 

There was a guy here a few years ago who got divorced in India and married in Denmark. The Standesamt refused to accept the marriage certificate because his divorce was not recognised in Germany.

 

I am amazed you bought Brexit to this thread. Get out, have some fresh air. This obsession can really not be doing you any good.

 

Standesamt will only get involved if you want to have your marriage certificate from some other country "nachdokumentiert" and be issued a German Heiratsurkunde. You don't need a German marriage certificate for anything - other than the "convenience" of not having to carry two pieces of paper every time somebody needs proof that you are married.

 

Marriage certificate from Denmark, accompanied by notarized and translated Apostille, work fine for all practical purposes.

 

Now, the only thing where I'm not sure - because that was never an issue for me - is the name change. Some people feel the need to change their last name, just because they got married. That is where Standesamt can then play all the "power games" they want.

If you can live with your own last name even after getting married, don't worry about Standesamt.

[RenegadeFurther 2,393]

3 minutes ago, karin_brenig said:

 

Standesamt will only get involved if you want to have your marriage certificate from some other country "nachdokumentiert" and be issued a German Heiratsurkunde. You don't need a German marriage certificate for anything - other than the "convenience" of not having to carry two pieces of paper every time somebody needs proof that you are married.

 

Standesamt can get involved anytime. Can you send me the link which states that the Standesamt will only get involved in certain situations?

[karin_brenig 685]

you're funny @RenegadeFurther. Why would you expect me to educate you on the inner workings of German bureaucracy?

 

Anyways - I'll try to shed some light: 

Standesamt is not like the police, they are more like public servants, they don't  "get involved" out of their own free will. If you want some service, that they are in charge of performing, you will have to go to them and request that service. Then, of course, if you asked them to do something for you, you'll have to give them whatever they want/need to process your request. 

 

If you don't want a German marriage certificate (or get married in Germany), you don't need service from Standesamt.

 

I don't know if your German is sufficient for this text, but here's what Standesamt can do for you (upon your request):

https://www.rechtslupe.de/zivilrecht/wofuer-ist-das-standesamt-zustaendig-3202841

 

And then, just for your further education (good for the formation of new synapsis in the grey matter) here's the connection between marriage outside of Germany, and recognition of the marriage inside of Germany, explained in plain German:

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/service/fragenkatalog-node/04-heirat-ausl---gueltigkeit-in-d/606266

[RenegadeFurther 2,393]

13 minutes ago, karin_brenig said:

you're funny @RenegadeFurther. Why would you expect me to educate you on the inner workings of German bureaucracy?

 

Anyways - I'll try to shed some light: 

Standesamt is not like the police, they are more like public servants, they don't  "get involved" out of their own free will. If you want some service, that they are in charge of performing, you will have to go to them and request that service. Then, of course, if you asked them to do something for you, you'll have to give them whatever they want/need to process your request. 

 

 

 

The standesamt can also check if the marriage is legitimate. A marriage certificate does not prove that the marriage was not legitimate.

 

When getting married in the EU, most EU countries will ask for a certificate of no impediment, Denmark does not do this which then start to raise questions.

[karin_brenig 685]

dude, do you ever even read your own words out loud to yourself? 

[RenegadeFurther 2,393]

23 minutes ago, karin_brenig said:

dude, do you ever even read your own words out loud to yourself? 

 

Do you ever look in the mirror?

[karin_brenig 685]

9 minutes ago, RenegadeFurther said:

 

Do you ever look in the mirror?

 

well, looks can be changed - genetics are permanent

[Metall 14,514]

Hahaha!
But seriously, @karin_brenig, just ignore this guy. He's destructive.

[optimista 5,840]

16 hours ago, Auntie Helen said:

... we planned for Denmark but then saw that it would cause problems in DE.

 

You'd definitely be well advised to read ALL the small print... which may be difficult to find... absorb... understand... and remember.

 

My French SIL and Croatian BIL were married in Denmark. It caused them a lot of pain when it came to getting her recognised as potentially the future widow of his German pension. Sorted now but there was a lot of swearing and leg-work at the time. Things can crawl out of the wood-work further down the line, indeed.

 

Under no circumstances lie, even by omission, about having been married before. Amazed that this was given as advice. Seriously bad idea. Insurers and pension schemes, just for example, always keen not to stump up - this would give them an excellent reason not to.

[murphaph 9,669]

2 hours ago, karin_brenig said:

So, for OP's situation, if Denmark accepts that you are free to marry - because it may be easier to prove that you are divorced - and you get legally married in Denmark - then you would have to bring a notarized and translated apostille along with your marriage certificate to be recognized as married in Germany. Done.

 

Now, after that - living in Germany - you will simply have to show marriage certificate from Denmark together with Apostille - every time that you need to prove you're married. You can save yourself the trouble of talking to any German Standesamt, or providing any additional documentation. 

This is no longer the case. It's even easier now. Since February 2019 there is no compulsion to provide an apostille on a marriage certificate from another EU country as long as that certificate (or certified translation thereof) is an official language of the EU member state you are presenting the document in. You are in fact entitled to request what is known as  Multilingual Standard Form in the EU language of your choice from (say) the Danish registry office and this form accompanies the marriage certificate itself and must be recognised by the public bodies of the other EU states.

 

Quote

From February 2019, public documents such as birth, marriage, adoption, civil partnership or death certificates issued in an EU country must be accepted as authentic by the authorities in another EU member state without the need to carry an ‘Apostille’ or authenticity stamp.
 

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/registrar_birth_marr_death.html

 

Quote

Since February 2019 you no longer need to get the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade stamp (apostille process) if a government body in an EU member state country asks you for a birth certificate or another certificate (marriage, civil partnership or death certificate).

When you need to get a birth certificate or other certificate to use in another EU country you can ask for a Multilingual Standard Form (MSF) and this will be accepted in the other EU country. It is a translation aid and is only of use when used with the original certificate. When you have a MSF you don’t have to get an official or certified translation. The MSF is free of charge. This new document was introduced under EU Regulation 2016/1191 on Public Documents. This Regulation makes it easier and less costly for people to deal with government bodies in other EU countries.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/a614f-regulation-on-public-documents/

[murphaph 9,669]

2 hours ago, RenegadeFurther said:

 

There was a guy here a few years ago who got divorced in India and married in Denmark. The Standesamt refused to accept the marriage certificate because his divorce was not recognised in Germany.

 

I am amazed you bought Brexit to this thread. Get out, have some fresh air. This obsession can really not be doing you any good.

You are a pathetic weasel. You changed your post attacking me. It was you that mentioned Brexit here first you chicken shit.

[murphaph 9,669]

For good measure here's the opinion of a lawyer (Indian national married to a German in Denmark):

 

Quote

Fazit:

Der Standesbeamte hat bei der Eintragung der Geburt des Kindes die Heiratsurkunde der verheirateten Eltern einzusehen. Handelt es sich um eine dänische Heiratsurkunde, so hat er diese zu akzeptieren, wenn die Urkunde einen entsprechenden Beglaubigungsvermerk des dänischen Innenministerium enthält.

 

https://www.anwalt.de/rechtstipps/anerkennung-daenischer-heiratsurkunde-in-deutschland-gereng-version_166163.html

 

It's slightly dated as it still talks about the apostille (trivial to obtain in Denmark and probably highly advisable anyway when one party is non-EU and may need to present the certificate in NZ some day)

 

The conclusion of this lawyer is that the Standesamt has no legal authority to request supporting documentation once the Danish government has apostilled a Danish marriage certificate for a marriage legally conducted in Denmark. They can't start asking for CNIs or anything else. This goes all the way back to the 1936 agreement I mentioned earlier.

 

Some people are simply too weak when face with a bureaucrat. You just have to quote the right § and suddenly the barriers tend to fall away.

[murphaph 9,669]

1 hour ago, karin_brenig said:

 

well, looks can be changed - genetics are permanent

And cowards like him don't post their pictures at all :-)

[catjones 1,658]

7 hours ago, murphaph said:

Yeah that's really not a good idea. The marriage would not be legal if lies were told. That could have some very serious consequences down the line should it ever come out. The tax advantages alone could run to tens hundreds of thousands. Even the other spouse could reveal the truth to the Finanzamt in a fit of rage or madness or whatever.

 

I knew when I wrote my comment that someone would reply with the letter of the law and wag their finger at the extremes of german justice, so thanks.  Your "serious consequences" and "tens hundreds of thousands" are projections not based in any reality.  Can you point to two real situations where these occurred?

My god, the guy wants to get married, let him.  When he gets divorced, his ex will "tell on him", but since he can't find documentation, neither will she and if they can't how much time do you think the Finanzamt will spend tracking it down?  Answer: zero.

[murphaph 9,669]

I guess if you are prepared to indemnify the guy against any penalties, financial or otherwise arising out of lying to the registrar and entering into an invalid marriage, then he should at least consider it. I'm betting you won't be making such an offer if indemnity however ;-)

[cb6dba 7,318]

1 hour ago, catjones said:

 

I knew when I wrote my comment that someone would reply with the letter of the law and wag their finger at the extremes of german justice, so thanks.  Your "serious consequences" and "tens hundreds of thousands" are projections not based in any reality.  Can you point to two real situations where these occurred?

My god, the guy wants to get married, let him.  When he gets divorced, his ex will "tell on him", but since he can't find documentation, neither will she and if they can't how much time do you think the Finanzamt will spend tracking it down?  Answer: zero.

I'd say this falls under the 'you make your choice and take your chances'.

 

OP is free do anything he wants here, he can lie and even knock up a fake certificate in photoshop, if he doesn't get caught, no consequences.

If he does, well, let's hope he posts here what happened.