My German wife cannot get her German passport renewed because of Brexit and Britsh citizenship.

38 posts in this topic

 

My German wife cannot get her German passport renewed because of Brexit and Britsh citizenship.

 

My wife has had German and passport since being evicted / expelled from Sudetendeutschland , now Czech Republic, in 1946.

 

After we married she applied for and received British passport/nationality in 1979.

In June she renewed her British passport online without problem.

In July she started to renew her German passport ( she never bothered with an Ausweis).

In the application form she answered the question „ Do you have another passport?“ for the first time ever, with „Yes“

Now we are in a clinch with local (Bavarian) KVR (Kreisvervaltungs Referat) who insist that she must produce a British „Einburgerungsurkunde“!

In 1979 there was no such thing as a British  „Einburgerungsurkunde“ , which I translate as a „Cerficate of citizenship“

We´ve contacted the British Consulate here (totally baffled) and British Nationality Office

at gov.uk : got no answer so far.

In the meantime she has also received forms to fill out requiring the translated Birth certificates and Marriage certificates of her grandparents and parents and much more regarding her lifelong payments into the German rental system.!!!

 

We are totally frustrated and angry !

Anybody got any answers? Contacts in UK gov.uk, or similar experiences?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did your wife apply to keep her German citizenship before taking on British citizenship??

 

https://www.berlin.de/ba-friedrichshain-kreuzberg/politik-und-verwaltung/aemter/amt-fuer-buergerdienste/staatsangehoerigkeitsbehoerde/artikel.165578.php

 

Quote

Beibehaltungsgenehmigung
Die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit geht bei Erwerb einer ausländischen Staatsangehörigkeit nur dann nicht verloren, wenn eine deutsche Staatsangehörigkeitsbehörde vor Erwerb der ausländischen Staatsangehörigkeit die Genehmigung erteilt, die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit behalten zu dürfen (Beibehaltungsgenehmigung).
Sollten Sie den Erwerb einer ausländischen Staatsangehörigkeit beabsichtigen, ist Ihnen daher zu empfehlen, sich rechtzeitig vorher mit der für Ihren Wohnsitz zuständigen Staatsangehörigkeitsbehörde in Verbindung zu setzen.

 

I'm not entirely sure your wife is actually a German citizen because taking on a foreign citizenship automatically leads to the loss of German citizenship (in 1979 the exemption to the rule did not extend to all EU countries as it does today) unless permission has been granted in advance to retain the German citizenship but someone else with more knowledge than me will surely be along to help. I could have the wrong end of the stick.

 

Edit: I don't think this has anything to do with Brexit. The EU exemption for giving up your German citizenship when taking another EU citizenship only came about quite recently, certainly well after 1979.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lou Snutz said:

„Einburgerungsurkunde“ , which I translate as a „Cerficate of citizenship“

 

You might get farther in your inquiries with the correct translation: "Certificate of naturalisation".

 

I suspect murphaph is correct, however, and your wife ceased being a German citizen when she took on UK citizenship.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also think murphaph is correct: by naturalization in the UK she lost her German citizenship. So what she is doing now is applying for German citizenship by descent. 

 

This is a much longer procedure than just renewing the passport. 

 

But she will succeed, just get patient, and good luck. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When was the last time (before this one) your wife renewed her German passport?

 

And hats off to you, if you are the same age as your wife it puts you at at least 74/75 (basing on a birth year of 1946) and you are out and about on the internet.

I couldn't get my parents interested when they were 50, let alone 70+.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

And hats off to you, if you are the same age as your wife it puts you at at least 74/75 (basing on a birth year of 1946) and you are out and about on the internet.

I couldn't get my parents interested when they were 50, let alone 70+.

 

My goodness, I'm 74 and have been out and about on the internet since the late 90s. I know many more my age the same. 

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, cb6dba said:

I couldn't get my parents interested when they were 50, let alone 70+.

Better so than being gaberlunzi. 

 

My parents have zero skills to find out which information is fake news and which is not, so I am happy they do not use Internet (much). 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

whether or not your wife retained her German citizenship in 1979 entirely depends on the terms of acquiring British citizenship upon getting married to you.

 

Did she have a choice back then? Did she actively apply for British citizenship? Or was that sort of "automatic", because of getting married to a British national?

 

If your wife had to actively pursue British citizenship, she automatically lost her German one in 1979. 

 

If she was naturalized "automatically" - because UK law made her British upon marriage to you - her German citizenship is not lost. That is probably why German authorities want to see  some kind of document that would prove the "involuntary" acquisition of your wife's British citizenship.

 

Another important thing that you might want to check into:

The UK became member of the precursor organisation to EU in 1973 already. 

So, maybe, your wife didn't loose German citizenship upon acquisition of British citizenship - if the laws about dual EU nationalities were in fact active already back then - even though it wasn't called "the EU" yet.

To prove that the date on your wife's UK certificate of naturalization - or whatever document proves that she is British - would be important.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was wondering the same Karin but he explicitly stated that his wife applied for citizenship:

Quote

After we married she applied for and received British passport/nationality in 1979.

That doesn't sound automatic to me and I don't believe it was automatic. It certainly isn't in the UK today. You have to wait a few years and can apply but it's not forced upon you. 

 

I think his wife probably ceased being German in 1979 and will now have to reapply but I wonder will she now have to surrender her British citizenship in the process. Brexit may certainly have complicated that bit.

 

The laws about retaining the other EU citizenship came much later. At least 20 years later.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, murphaph said:

I was wondering the same Karin but he explicitly stated that his wife applied for citizenship:

That doesn't sound automatic to me and I don't believe it was automatic. It certainly isn't in the UK today. You have to wait a few years and can apply but it's not forced upon you. 

 

I think his wife probably ceased being German in 1979 and will now have to reapply but I wonder will she now have to surrender her British citizenship in the process. Brexit may certainly have complicated that bit.

 

The laws about retaining the other EU citizenship came much later. At least 20 years later.

I'd still be interested to hear when the passport as last renewed.

It can't be the one his wife got back in '46 that she is trying to renew, that would be a totally new application. Maybe it is that one and as it's been such a long time they have to go through a whole new process.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think she just never ticked the "yes I have another citizenship" box until now, so the Germans had no way of knowing she had taken on another citizenship and in doing so lost her German citizenship.

 

I don't even think German law allows non-EU spouses to retain their other citizenship if they naturalise through marriage (like the Netherlands which is otherwise very strict on these things) so even if the OP had taken on German citizenship his wife could not use this to keep both.

 

I think she missed her opportunity to reapply for German citizenship while the UK was still a member of the EU unfortunately.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ Murphaph Did your wife apply to keep her German citizenship before taking on British citizenship?? A. :  My wife renewed her Brit Pass in June , then applied in July to renew her German Pass.

@ cb6dba My wife ( 79+) has renewed her German pass every 10 years of her life. And her UK Pass also every 10 years ( she still has most of them)


 

Thanks Karin,

In 1979 there was, we think, a short period during which British citizenship for my wife was „automatic“, but she had still to apply for the passport – it didn´t come automatically.

The consulate in Stuttgart (no longer exists) confirmed (I suppose from their point of view) that she was able to keep her German passport /citizenship. We can´t remember if we consulted the German authorities , we have no record.

" To prove that the date on your wife's UK certificate of naturalization - or whatever document proves that she is British - would be important. "...

A:...We didn´t get  a certificate of naturalization...just a passport every 10 years.

 

P.S. It seems to me that the authorities are making life for Brits particularly difficult, especially when I see other non EU nationalities wih two passports, by the way - I also now have dual nationality !!

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, murphaph said:

Did your wife apply to keep her German citizenship before taking on British citizenship??

 

https://www.berlin.de/ba-friedrichshain-kreuzberg/politik-und-verwaltung/aemter/amt-fuer-buergerdienste/staatsangehoerigkeitsbehoerde/artikel.165578.php

 

 

I'm not entirely sure your wife is actually a German citizen because taking on a foreign citizenship automatically leads to the loss of German citizenship (in 1979 the exemption to the rule did not extend to all EU countries as it does today) unless permission has been granted in advance to retain the German citizenship but someone else with more knowledge than me will surely be along to help. I could have the wrong end of the stick.

 

Edit: I don't think this has anything to do with Brexit. The EU exemption for giving up your German citizenship when taking another EU citizenship only came about quite recently, certainly well after 1979.

 

 

If you are correct, which I suspect you are, then she won't be able to get German citizenship without renoucing the British one (because UK is not in the EU anymore).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Krieg said:

If you are correct, which I suspect you are, then she won't be able to get German citizenship without renoucing the British one (because UK is not in the EU anymore).

That’s not necessarily true.  She can apply under the hardship rule as a third country national and may very well be allowed dual citizenship.  My husband, also an ethnic German (family from the Kingdom of Yugoslavia), is a former German citizen with US citizenship.  He’s familiar with the process.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, BethAnnBitt said:

That’s not necessarily true.  She can apply under the hardship rule as a third country national and may very well be allowed dual citizenship.  My husband, also an ethnic German (family from the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) is a former German citizen with US citizenship.  He’s familiar with the process.

 

Well,. of course she can try, but it is not easy.    I unsuccessfully tried, that's why I have no German citizenship, no way I am going to quit mine.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Well,. of course she can try, but it is not easy.

Easy is a relative term.  

Quote

  I unsuccessfully tried, that's why I have no German citizenship, no way I am going to quit mine.

Are you a former German citizen?  Or are you only referring to trying to attain German citizenship while retaining another citizenship?  The processes have overlap, but they aren’t the same.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, BethAnnBitt said:

Are you a former German citizen?  Or are you referring to trying to attain German citizenship while retaining another citizenship?  The processes have overlap, but aren’t the same.

 

I get it, thank you for the info.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Lou Snutz said:

In 1979 there was, we think, a short period during which British citizenship for my wife was „automatic“, but she had still to apply for the passport – it didn´t come automatically.

The consulate in Stuttgart (no longer exists) confirmed (I suppose from their point of view) that she was able to keep her German passport /citizenship. We can´t remember if we consulted the German authorities , we have no record.

 

 

Citizenship and passport are two different things - you can be a citizen of a country without having a passport.

 

So, if your wife's British citizenship was "automatic" (and you can prove that) she never lost her German citizenship. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lou Snutz said:

 

My German wife cannot get her German passport renewed because of Brexit and Britsh citizenship.

...

In the application form she answered the question „ Do you have another passport?“ for the first time ever, with „Yes“

Now we are in a clinch with local (Bavarian) KVR (Kreisvervaltungs Referat) who insist that she must produce a British „Einburgerungsurkunde“!

...

Anybody got any answers? Contacts in UK gov.uk, or similar experiences?

 

I have a similar experience ... from trying to get married in Germany. The KVR have a checklist of documents that you need to supply for any given request and there is no option to bypass it. Even if the country that they demand a recently issued birth-certificate from no longer exists, as in our case.

This is why there is a cottage-industry for German residents to get married in Denmark, as we did in the end. 

 

It's just bog-standard German bureaucracy (I don't see why you think it is related to Brexit) and there is normally very little that you can do about it. It really depends on the stubborness of the beamter dealing with your case and the best you can hope is to speak to them and persuade them it is an impossible request. 

 

Alternatively, you could apply again later and not tick the box.

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, penchanski said:

Alternatively, you could apply again later and not tick the box.

I think that is very poor advice. I bet there is a stiff penalty for providing false information on a passport renewal form.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now