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Entitlement to an S1 Form

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Doesn't actually affect me but being the geek I am, I have been reading a variety of threads and questions on this issue and cannot find a definitive answer on GOV UK or the NHS website.

 

As I understand it, the country responsible for your social security (competent Member State, including still the UK in this context) assumes the costs of your healthcare, hence the concept of the S1.  To qualify for an S1 from the UK you must be receiving and exportable benefit, aka the UK state pension.  You must not be in receipt of a German state pension, otherwise it would be Germany as the state of residence that is the competent Member State and responsible for healthcare.  So far so good.

 

But, what is the position if the person receives a UK occupational pension, e.g. a military or civil service pension for government service, or a pension from some other non-German employment.  Logic would suggest that the UK would remain the competent Member State and liable for healthcare provision but logic is not the determining factor of course.   I believe REGULATION (EC) No 883/2004 is the relevant legislation but that is not that easy to interpret and may suggest that the position is different, depending on whether that other income arises by reason of government or private occupation.

 

Has anyone looked into this and found the answer?   

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4 minutes ago, GaryC said:

Doesn't actually affect me but being the geek I am, I have been reading a variety of threads and questions on this issue and cannot find a definitive answer on GOV UK or the NHS website.

 

As I understand it, the country responsible for your social security (competent Member State, including still the UK in this context) assumes the costs of your healthcare, hence the concept of the S1.  To qualify for an S1 from the UK you must be receiving and exportable benefit, aka the UK state pension.  You must not be in receipt of a German state pension, otherwise it would be Germany as the state of residence that is the competent Member State and responsible for healthcare.  So far so good.

 

But, what is the position if the person receives a UK occupational pension, e.g. a military or civil service pension for government service, or a pension from some other non-German employment.  Logic would suggest that the UK would remain the competent Member State and liable for healthcare provision but logic is not the determining factor of course.   I believe REGULATION (EC) No 883/2004 is the relevant legislation but that is not that easy to interpret and may suggest that the position is different, depending on whether that other income arises by reason of government or private occupation.

 

Has anyone looked into this and found the answer?   

If you are resident in Germany (or any other EU country) get a pension from UK, and also a pension from another EU country, then they work out which country you paid into the pension scheme longest to work out who is responsible for healthcare. 
Example 1
Resident Germany but no pension from here
Worked in EU country for 15 years
Worked in UK for 30 years

UK responsible for S1

 

Example 2

Resident Germany but no pension from here
Worked in EU country for 30 years
Worked in UK for 15 years

UK is NOT responsible for S1

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I get that, and that wasn't my question.  I was asking how it works if there is no entitlement to a pension in Germany, i.e. the UK is the competent institution, but the person has a UK state pension AND a UK pension by reason of their employment, i.e. an occupational pension.

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On 11/08/2021, 22:05:03, SusieT said:

If you are resident in Germany (or any other EU country) get a pension from UK, and also a pension from another EU country, then they work out which country you paid into the pension scheme longest to work out who is responsible for healthcare. 

 

Responsible for health care?

So if you don't get a German pension, but get a UK one, then the UK pays some healthcare costs?

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6 minutes ago, scook17 said:

 

Responsible for health care?

So if you don't get a German pension, but get a UK one, then the UK pays some healthcare costs?

If your only income is the UK state pension then you are entitled to a form S1 and the UK picks up the tab for some healthcare costs - but not longterm care.  If you have any German income then that does not apply.  What is not so easy to fathom is what the position is if you have only UK income made up of UK state pension and a UK occupational pension.  I think the same should apply as the UK would be the competent institution but cannot find that written down anywhere...

 

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Well, up here there are zillions of ex-soldiers, and if they haven't worked in Germany and therefore have no German pension, they get S1 healthcare. If they have worked here, and get a pension, they buy into KK same as a German.

 

I have no idea what the regulations are, but that is what is happening on the ground at the moment, so your instinct is correct.

 

My very limited understanding is that the critical point  is that you do have an age-related pension from the UK whilst not having a pension from the EU country you are residing in, otherwise you becaome a native pensioner, as it were, and subject to their system. I don't think that there is a requirement to only have that pension income, though. I think you could have rental income and all sorts, you just must absolutely have your UK OAP and not have eg. a German one.

 

 The way you get your S1 is by phoning the nice people in Newcastle and declaring that you live in *blah* and  are about to start receiving your 'age-related pension' and then they send you the form. I do not currently know anyone who is receiving any other benefit (not sure what an 'exportable benefit' would be?) who gets S1 provision, but I do know it used to be different, you could get an S1 at your forces retirement age, for example, or on early retirement or as the dependent of a UKBC, or for 3-4 months after arriving in Germany etc etc but most of that is gone now, although there are always exceptions who seem to be complete anomalies. 

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4 hours ago, scook17 said:

then the UK pays some healthcare costs?

 

Yarp.

 

You get a KK card and whatever is standard care for the holders of that card is yours.

 

Interesting that long-term care is excluded.

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My understanding is that it is no German income, not just no German social security pension. 

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58 minutes ago, GaryC said:

My understanding is that it is no German income, not just no German social security pension. 

kiplette is correct, this is about a German social security pension only.

For details, please read Article 24 of the "REGULATION (EC) No 883/2004 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 29 April 2004 on the coordination of social security systems": https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:02004R0883-20140101

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30 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

kiplette is correct, this is about a German social security pension only.

For details, please read Article 24 of the "REGULATION (EC) No 883/2004 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 29 April 2004 on the coordination of social security systems": https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:02004R0883-20140101

I have just been reading that in this format Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the coordination of social security systems (Text with relevance for the EEA and for Switzerland) (legislation.gov.uk), rather than just surmising, and it does seem to say that once one is a pensioner, i.e. past state pension age and therefore in receipt of a social security pension for one or more member states including the UK for this purpose, that it matters not what other income one has.  Good news for those with UK state pensions but also other (non state pension) income from one or both countries...  

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But as I understand it, if you are receiving a pension from the UK and also a German state pension then you have to pay KV on the whole of your income, not just the German state pension. If I'm wrong then please tell me.

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Yes. 

 

It is all or nothing. If you have avoided a German pension, pass retirement and collect 'free' healthcare through an S1.

 

If you have a German pension, go straight to the KK and give them the relevant percentage of Your Whole Worldwide Income.

 

The difference is brutal.

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