Bringing old age parents under §36.2 AufenthG and health insurance

31 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, jeba said:


I wasn´t even joking. A late friend of my late mother did exactly that aged 71 (this was in the eighties though). There are studies (like e.g. air and space IT at the University of Würzburg) where you won´t have to pass any exams nor show up at University for 5 years before you get kicked out. 

My bad, I never thought this would be possible for non-EU elderly. How did she manage to get the health insurance coverage for longer period? But thank you, this is yet another path that needs to be explored.

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15 minutes ago, MarioT said:

My bad, I never thought this would be possible for non-EU elderly. How did she manage to get the health insurance coverage for longer period? But thank you, this is yet another path that needs to be explored.

As I said, this was in the eighties. At that time it wasn´t compulsory to have health insurance. I think he had kept his US insurance. But a lawyer should be able to force a private insurance company to accept your parents into the Basistarif. Plus for foreign students there are (AFAIK) special rules allowing them to have foreign insurance even if it´s not BAFIN approved. @john g. should be able to throw some light on this.

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Another thouight crossing my mind: if all else fails what about taking residence in a Schengen country with less strict requirements for resident permits. Rumor has it that e.g. Spain grants permanent residence if you buy property for € 600,000.- (no idea whether it´s true though). Who will check how often and for how long your parents are visiting you?

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7 minutes ago, jeba said:

Another thouight crossing my mind: if all else fails what about taking residence in a Schengen country with less strict requirements for resident permits.

That would be taking it to the extreme a bit. €600K is a lot of money. I guess a less painful option would be EU free movement option (moving to a commutable place like AT, NL, FR or BE area near the DE border and inviting them there).

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1 minute ago, MarioT said:

That would be taking it to the extreme a bit. €600K is a lot of money. I guess a less painful option would be EU free movement option (moving to a commutable place like AT, NL, FR or BE area near the DE border and inviting them there).

With your kind of income you should easily be able to get a mortgage - currently for less than 2% interest and they could rent out that property. Given that Spanish health insurance is probably a lot cheaper it may be something to look at.  Also, maybe other (Eastern European) Schengen countries have similar and cheaper options. But I don´t really have a clue - I´m just doing some brainstorming here.

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5 hours ago, MarioT said:

1. Financials: 

Is this assumption correct? So, this would probably be 12 x 900€ (PKV Prämie) plus 9744€ for 2021 deducted from tax calculation per parent. Is that right?

Yes, you would get to lower your taxable income by (per parent):

Grundfreibetrag

+ yearly health insurance cost

- parent's own yearly income (e.g. Indian pension)

_________________________________________

= support 

 

 

5 hours ago, MarioT said:

2. Bureaucratic:

We are still at the "needs assistance" phase. It's a reality since the onset of virus. Their meetings with friends & relatives is virtually cut off since March 2020, and became worse when the second wave ravaged the country this year. And 3rd wave looks all but guaranteed to hit in a few months. The house-helpers are no more an option for the fear of infections.

Now, isn't "needs assistance" a consideration for §36.2? 

 

India has no formal old-age care infrastructure, and many of the private initiatives are riddled with fraud and abuse, with gross negligence (sometimes even physical abuse) in caregiving while charging a hefty sum. Finding a good care facility is a needle/haystack phenomenon. Hence I am looking at all the options now.

If you argue Corona as the "reason", then the best I see you getting is a time-limited residence permit for your parents, since it will be assumed that this is a transitory problem.

Please note that the German institutions are also using Corona as an excuse to delay things, so you may be arguing for so long over this that in the end when you do get them to issue a (time-limited) residence permit, you would have been better off doing a detour for a year to a "friendly" EU country in which it's easier to bring over the aged parents and that has general public health insurance for all residents.

 

And then move back to Germany with your parents in tow as a family unit.

With your parents now coming directly out of an EU public health insurance, they will have been members of it for over 1 year and German public health insurance would have to then accept them as members, not at 900€ per month, but at around 200€ per month (assuming their own worldwide montly income is up to 30/90*Bezugsgröße).

 

5 hours ago, MarioT said:

When the issue is forced, I still see EU Free movement rights in a health-insurance friendly country (NL, AT, FR...) for a year or two as an option before moving back all together to DE. Is there anything I am overlooking here? 

Yes, I see this as your best option.

Look for an EU country that allows you to bring over elderly parents and that has general public health insurance.

 

*************************************

 

But before upheaving your life, please try a long visit of your parents in Germany first.

As LeonG has said, this may - especially if extended because of a new Corona outbreak - lead to the surprising (to you) conclusion that your parents don't like living in Germany, or anywhere but in their Indian hometown.

 

And then you will be faced with an even harder choice: jeopardise your professional life to move back to India to be with them, or find another solution.

Maybe then you will remember some less well-off relative in your family tree whom you could pay to move in with your parents and care for them in their own home.

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This is a very difficult topic. I have a friend who is married to an Albanian (who became a German citizen) who tried to get his old mother into Germany. He eventually got her a visa for the Netherlands. She moved there and joined extended family. So she wasn't alone. And, sadly, she died there. My Albania- German friend later told me that not being able to get his mother into Germany was the only thing he regretted about his life in Germany.

 

Do talk to your parents. What do they want? Are they happy in India? Do they have friends there? Do you really want them to move to a country where they have no friends, don't speak the language, don't know the culture just to move them again in a few years to a country which they don't know and they don't speak the language. This is a very difficult situation ☹️ 

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31 minutes ago, Namu said:

This is a very difficult topic.

...

Do talk to your parents. What do they want? Are they happy in India? Do they have friends there? Do you really want them to move to a country where they have no friends, don't speak the language, don't know the culture just to move them again in a few years to a country which they don't know and they don't speak the language. This is a very difficult situation ☹️ 

It is indeed a pretty complex topic. Sharing some info (hopefully will be useful for someone, and I am anon here) They have been here thrice, twice full 3 months. It's the last few weeks when they really wanted to go back. +ves: their health had improved considerably each time and whenever they had company they were happy (kids, or other visitors from a similar backdrop). Vacations were tough for us as well as them (kids wanted to go skiing or tobogganing or biking, while parents needed something much more calmer).

What would be ideal? Probably having the ability to switch between a short, fully assisted stay in India (short term care is more doable than a permanent solution) and a long stretch in DE. I don't know yet.

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45 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

Yes, you would get to lower your taxable income by:

     per parent: Grundfreibetrag + yearly health insurance cost

Thank you. A quick calculation on elster shows that this tax saving covers nearly 78% of the PKV Basistarif for both. In my case. Not bad at all.

 

52 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

Yes, I see this as your best option.

Look for an EU country that allows you to bring over elderly parents and that has general public health insurance.

Thanks for confirming this - this is also a great option when the situation demands an extreme step.

 

55 minutes ago, PandaMunich said:

But before upheaving your life, please try a long visit of your parents in Germany first.

As LeonG had said, this may - especially if extended because of a new Corona outbreak - lead to the surprising (for you) conclusion that your parents don't like living in Germany, or basically anywhere but in their Indian hometown.

 

And then you will be faced with an even harder choice: jeopardise your professional life to move back to India to be with them, or find another solution.

Maybe then you will remember some less well-off relative in your family tree whom you could pay to move in with your parents and care for them in their own home.

Thanks a lot @PandaMunich You have been very kind and generous with your help & advice. Now that I can figure out what the possibilities are, this is an aspect I need to think through with both sides of the family.

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1 hour ago, MarioT said:

Thank you. A quick calculation on elster shows that this tax saving covers nearly 78% of the PKV Basistarif for both. In my case. Not bad at all.

 

Please note that any income your parents have from whatever source worldwide, e.g. an Indian pension or Indian capital income, reduces the amount that you can claim in your tax return for supporting them.

So your calculation would only hold true if both their incomes were 0€.

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2 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

you would have been better off doing a detour for a year to a "friendly" EU country in which it's easier to bring over the aged parents and that has general public health insurance for all residents.

Cyprus comes to mind. While I´m not sure about residence requirements for non-EU citizens it has pretty low cost of domestic workers/helpers/carers

Quote

G. Domestic Workers Salary

The gross salary for a Domestic Worker is €460 and the net salary is €309.

source: http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/crmd/crmd.nsf/All/5314ED0D3F68CA9EC2257D2C003A4DC2?OpenDocument

 

and it will be easy to find a live-in caregiver from a culturally familiar country (I live in Cyprus and my cleaning lady is from Sri Lanka). Having an Asian domestic worker is quite common around here. It also has compulsory (with few exceptions)  public health insurance. It´s also not part of the Schengen area, which would allow your parents to "commute" every 90 days between Germany and Cyprus while the residence permit problem is being dealt with (they have to leave the Schengen area after 90 days as long as they don´t have residence permits). You may not find a domestic worker willing to work for the minimum set by law, but for € 700 - 800 I bet you will.

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