Bringing old age parents under §36.2 AufenthG and health insurance

31 posts in this topic

Hi,

 

I did as much research as I could (info4alien, frag-einen-anwalt etc and here as well) but did not find all the info I needed. Any kind soul providing some info would really be helpful. Thank you for your time.

My situation: (newly crowned) German citizen, with decent financial situation (both my wife and I work in IT field). Only child to my parents.

What I am trying to achieve: Trying to bring my old aged parents from India with deteriorating health made worse by helplessness during long periods of COVID lockdowns in India. Father: 80yo - 50% vision and hearing loss, diabetic, but otherwise healthy & mobile; Mother: 75yo, high degree of mobility challenges due to arthritis in almost all joints & osteoporosis, blood pressure & mild asthma added to it. Now with the threat of COVID infection looming, their day-to-day life is at the mercy of ecommerce service providers.

Questions: 1. Has anyone succeeded appealing under §36.2 of AufenthG proving "außergewöhnliche Härte"? Do you see above mentioned grounds are good enough to prove this?

2. I know private health insurance for old aged persons could be exorbitantly high. But I read somewhere that all PKVs are bounded by law to provide a Basis Tarif (could @john g. kindly throw some light on this?). Also, since I will be paying for these, do you know if I can obtain tax relief for these amounts?

 

If this fails, I see only two possibilities: 1. Go back or make some sort of dual-living arrangements; 2. Shift to another EU country and insist on the EU free movement rights to bring the parents here. Both of these are a heavy burden on the overall family, so still trying my luck with the straight forward case.

 

Thanks a ton! Mario

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Mario👍

As an ageing person myself and  with friends in Germany and here where I live in Greece and many of them with serious illnesses etc- all I can say is " empathy for you and your family."

Basistarif- a total joke. Costs about 900 euros a month per person - ok.

But- no way in hell ANY private insurer will respect the law. They will fight tooth and nail and NOT accept an application. They know they are on a losing game re costs. If someone wants the Basistarif- it is because they are ill and cannot get cover elsewhere.

The other issue - but not my area- but pageing @engelchen... the visa / residence rights for family dependents. I don't know if your now being German helps.

Empathy for you.

 

There is a profession unknown to most people. It is called Versicherungsberater. Now, this sounds just like the hundreds of thousands of insurance salespeople wandering around the country but the profession couldn't be more different. It is actually a profession for people who do NOT sell insurance but check out what is best for the client and they take a fee.

Re the Basistarif issue- maybe a chance to find someone.

https://www.finanztip.de/sinnvolle-versicherungen/versicherungsberater/

I am NOT a Versicherungsberater. Though I never take fees for advice and proposals. Not my karma.

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5 minutes ago, john g. said:

Basistarif- a total joke. Costs about 900 euros a month per person - ok.

But- no way in hell ANY private insurer will respect the law. They will fight tooth and nail and NOT accept an application. They know they are on a losing game re costs. If someone wants the Basistarif- it is because they are ill and cannot get cover elsewhere.

Thanks a lot JohnG  🙏 🙏

Uff, 1800€ a month itself is almost 60% of one netto salary. Hopefully, if tax relief can be claimed on this, I could still afford this.

Now §36.2 is set up in a way to protect the drain on the resources, the bar is way too high. But it still is a ray of hope. Hoping to hear some info from @engelchen The lawyer I spoke to is non-committal in taking up the case and is saying it's a 50% chance. Would really love to hear a second opinion before pushing the papers. 

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Second opinion here! And third opinion! You will need a damned good normal lawyer or Versicherungsberater! Plus maybe a damned good lawyer specialised in immigration law.

If your lawyer says 50/50 - go for it. It is your family.

By the way, a small warning. Even if you have legal insurance, it will not cover immigration issues. But I don't know if you have one or if the one you might have covers the costs of a Versicherungsberater for health insurance questions for immigrants. 

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There are care homes in Poland specialising in German patients, that could be interesting for others in a like situation, say living in Berlin. Not sure how much cheaper they are.

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But the parents are Indians and the OP wants his parents in Germany. And not in an old folks home. And corona does the rest!  Plus I have no idea of Polish immigration rules for ageing Indians! Or even young ones.

And ( humour alert )--- you can't talk about cricket in a Polish care home. They refuse and sulk!😩

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7 minutes ago, Fietsrad said:

There are care homes in Poland specialising in German patients, that could be interesting for others in a like situation, say living in Berlin. Not sure how much cheaper they are.

Thanks for the info, but not really an option for me: Poland is as far as Mumbai is when it comes to having to make efforts to reach them. A full-service apartment in India would cover the needs to a similar extent, but culturally, it isn't an easy option, especially the more they have to depend on others, the more they want us to be the ones with them.

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10 minutes ago, john g. said:

 And corona does the rest!

Absolutely. Corona has changed everything for us in terms of planning: they were fiercely (and happily) independent so far, but are now afraid that if one might depart and leave the other one to cope. Well, that'd be a situation for me to handle very differently, but I am trying my best to avoid the heartburn. After all, what's life without the consequences of choices we make!

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Yes' Mario! ( The best Italian-Indian name ever👍)..

My Auntie Alwyn in England is 88 and when we phone ( with my brother's help ), she keeps asking me if I still know where she lives.😒

I do but I can't just hop on a plane from Greece and say hello. It doesn't work like that...and I have to keep reminding her..

 

PS: I DO know her address. It is on an old hand-written piece of paper floating around the office ( depending on the air flow)..I don't do organised stuff like Teams and Telegraph and all the rest of it! That is for old people! On a good day, I remember my email address. In 5 languages!😂

Next step tomorrow is to remember where that town in England is!😀

 

PS: a company in France contacted me today and recommended / hope we can do a chat on Teams tomorrow! It can't be the Olympics so it must be important!

😃

10 am Central European Time - whatever that is! Must remember to put on a shirt!

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Just putting my thoughts out there (for anyone reading in 2031 or so...) regarding the costs:

The insurance costs PLUS a maintenance support cost (for 2021 it is 9744€ per person) - Unterstützungsleistungen und Unterhaltungszahlungen for your direct family members, parents included -  do receive a tax relief. So, it isn't financially as bad as it might at first appear (I mean, if 900€ Basistarif is somehow obtained, then a good portion of this plus 9744€ get a tax relief): If you are somewhere close to 40% tax bracket, you are almost covering 70-80% of the PKV premium payments from this tax relief. Per person.

I hope my assumptions here are correct.

 

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1 hour ago, MarioT said:

 

Uff, 1800€ a month itself is almost 60% of one netto salary.

 

Then you don't seem to have sufficient funds to be able to support your parents, especially considering that if you and your wife are both working, you'll have additional costs when they can't manage by themselves during the day.

 

1 hour ago, MarioT said:

 

Now §36.2 is set up in a way to protect the drain on the resources, the bar is way too high.

 

You can't expect taxpayers in Germany to have to bear any of the costs for your parents. Health costs in Germany are very high and private health insurance companies expect to make a loss even if they receive 800€/ month per person. 

 

1 hour ago, MarioT said:

But it still is a ray of hope. Hoping to hear some info from @engelchen The lawyer I spoke to is non-committal in taking up the case and is saying it's a 50% chance. Would really love to hear a second opinion before pushing the papers. 

 

Based on the info you've provided, I would deny your parents' application, but that is my personal opinion based on the laws currently in effect. However, I have no idea if the person processing the application might approve it. I think your chances are less than 50%.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

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3 minutes ago, engelchen said:

You can't expect taxpayers in Germany to have to bear any of the costs for your parents. Health costs in Germany are very high and private health insurance companies expect to make a loss even if they receive 800€/ month per person. 

Agreed, and neutrally speaking, it's a very fair law.

 

3 minutes ago, engelchen said:

 

Then you don't seem to have sufficient funds to be able to support your parents

60% of the lower of the netto salaries. Plus the other netto salary. And then there are bonuses, stocks... Plus, there would be some tax breaks for the additional financial burden. So, I guess this is covered.

 

3 minutes ago, engelchen said:

Based on the info you've provided, I would deny your parents' application, but that is my personal opinion based on the laws currently in effect. However, I have no idea if the person processing the application might approve it. I think your chances are less than 50%.

I assume this is discounting the financial aspect, purely on the conditions of the parents. Again, I am afraid you might be right, because there is no set definition for exceptional hardship.

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26 minutes ago, MarioT said:

The insurance costs PLUS a maintenance support cost (for 2021 it is 9744€ per person) - Unterstützungsleistungen und Unterhaltungszahlungen for your direct family members, parents included -  do receive a tax relief. So, it isn't financially as bad as it might at first appear (I mean, if 900€ Basistarif is somehow obtained, then a good portion of this plus 9744€ get a tax relief): If you are somewhere close to 40% tax bracket, you are almost covering 70-80% of the PKV premium payments from this tax relief. Per person.

I hope my assumptions here are correct.

 

 

I think your calculations are wrong, but taxes are not my area of expertise. 

 

If you search @PandaMunich's posts, you should be able to find an explanation. I know she has explained this before.

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I think the problem is that it's a catch-22.

Your parents need to require (full-time) nursing to qualify for the "extraordinary hardship" clause of §36 (2) AufenthG.

 

Please  read:

 

And if they do require this nursing, your wife would have to quit her job to do it and your family would no longer earn enough to be able to pay for your parents' health insurance and keep.

 

You may also want to first ask your wife how she feels about her quitting her IT job to nurse your parents.

Because that's what it would come down to, even if you do manage to make the numbers work, you will never earn enough to be able to afford third-party nursing here in Germany: 

My advice would be to look for a relative back in India whom you pay to move in and take care of your parents. This would also have the advantage that in India you could get much more done with the same amount of money than in Germany, your purchasing power would be higher.

 

There is a German saying: 

"Einen alten Baum verpflanzt man nicht."

= You should never move an old tree.

 

I have seen this scenario play out with EU citizen parents, i.e. no visa problems and free German public health insurance, because the EU parents got it through their pension in their EU home country (their EU country pays in the background, but for them it's free, they just need to give German health insurance the form S1 their EU home country health insurance issued them).

And in nearly all cases, it was the EU elderly parents who didn't like it in Germany and who moved back.

And just to be clear: I never saw it work out with the husband's parents.

If they were the wife's parents, it did work out now and then, but from what I saw, the help in those cases mostly went the other way, i.e. her parents came and helped with childcare so that their daughter could go back to work sooner and not jeopardise her career.

 

The cultural and language differences between them and Germany weren't that big, but they still missed their old environment, their garden, being able to speak their own language in the shops, at the hairdresser and with the neighbours. And simple things like a friend dropping by for a cup of tea/coffee and some gossip.

 

Please don't underestimate what a big change it would be for your parents and for your wife.

She signed up to be an IT specialist, not a nurse.

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A friend of mine had managed to get his almost 80 year old mother a visit visa and she got stuck here a lot longer due to covid.  She was dying to go home.  She didn't like the weather for one thing.  Much warmer in India.

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Thank you @PandaMunich You have addressed the issue from a qualitative perspective that I still need to pay a lot of attention to. It's still a slowly developing situation for me. Simple things like taking a vacation would be so much more taxing then. But I need to ponder over this aspect further.

 

I still need to evaluate the financial & bureaucratic feasibilities before working on the alternative solutions. I would again be grateful for your inputs.

1. Financials: 

6 hours ago, MarioT said:

The insurance costs PLUS a maintenance support cost (for 2021 it is 9744€ per person) - Unterstützungsleistungen und Unterhaltungszahlungen for your direct family members, parents included -  do receive a tax relief.

Is this assumption correct? So, this would probably be 12 x 900€ (PKV Prämie) plus 9744€ for 2021 deducted from tax calculation per parent. Is that right?

2. Bureaucratic:

4 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

I think the problem is that it's a catch-22.

Your parents need to require (full-time) nursing to qualify for the "extraordinary hardship" clause of §36 (2) AufenthG.

We are still at the "needs assistance" phase. It's a reality since the onset of virus. Their meetings with friends & relatives is virtually cut off since March 2020, and became worse when the second wave ravaged the country this year. And 3rd wave looks all but guaranteed to hit in a few months. The house-helpers are no more an option for the fear of infections.

Now, isn't "needs assistance" a consideration for §36.2? 

 

8 hours ago, MarioT said:

If this fails, I see only two possibilities: 1. Go back or make some sort of dual-living arrangements; 2. Shift to another EU country and insist on the EU free movement rights to bring the parents here.

When the issue is forced, I still see EU Free movement rights in a health-insurance friendly country (NL, AT, FR...) for a year or two as an option before moving back all together to DE. Is there anything I am overlooking here? It's a lot of work for two years, but an option nonetheless.

 

India has no formal old-age care infrastructure, and many of the private initiatives are riddled with fraud and abuse, with gross negligence (sometimes even physical abuse) in caregiving while charging a hefty sum. Finding a good care facility is a needle/haystack phenomenon. Hence I am looking at all the options now.

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What about your parents applying for  study permits? Surely,  your parents have always been eager to learn German and go to University, haven´t they? Study permits should be easy to come by, I´ve heard.

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4 minutes ago, jeba said:

What about your parents applying for  study permits? Surely,  your parents have always been eager to learn German and go to University, haven´t they? Study permits should be easy to come by I´ve heard.

Ha ha, I guess that would be considered as being naughty, especially when they can't show any progress even after 3 months.

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Just now, MarioT said:

Ha ha, I guess that would be considered as being naughty, especially when they can't show any progress even after 3 months.


I wasn´t even joking. A late friend of my late mother did exactly that aged 71 (this was in the eighties though). There are studies (like e.g. air and space IT at the University of Würzburg) where you won´t have to pass any exams nor show up at University for 5 years before you get kicked out. My son is studying there, and he tells me that about 30% of his colleagues seem to be phantoms he has never seen. I seem to remember reading that study permits to learn German are granted initially for 1 year. That would at least give your parents an idea of how they like it in Germany. If I was you I´d look into what you can study (or do an apprenticeship) without having to pass exams.

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