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non-stop helicopter and other flights over central munich

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3 hours ago, optimista said:

So how are you going to prove what height they are at?

 

Air traffic control records? I have no idea how to access them or if it is possible. It seems like they could be checked if enough complaints come in.

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On 7/16/2021, 12:26:47, fraufruit said:

 

Air traffic control records? I have no idea how to access them or if it is possible. It seems like they could be checked if enough complaints come in.

 

There are indeed traffic records and those are broadcasted in real-time (the altitude is visible in websites like flighradar24).

 

That said, this really doesn't matter, as 300m is a *ridiculously* low altitude to be flying over dense residential areas continiously. Most of the really noisy flights going on here are at about 2700ft which is ~900m, and they are quite loud (I can hear them from a distance for some time until it goes crazy when they are practically crossing above).

 

And again while one every so often in cases if emergency could be tolerable, we are talking here about an average of 10 crossings per day.

 

It has really been a shitshow over here (Bogenhausen/Mauerkirchen). The moment the weather gets better the circus starts. Anything from rescue flights, police helicopters and amateur private flights are going on each and every day, about 10-15 crossings. Right above the same exact region. Over 17 flights here today (Sunday), another one while I'm writing this. The view must be irresistible!

 

But quite frankly, I'm not even surprised that this is officially blessed by the various authorities and laws. This goes to show that the society tolerates this crap, so it only gets worse.

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On 7/14/2021, 1:29:55, LukeSkywalker said:

I received a fast standard reply from the Fluglärmschutzbeauftragte ( aircraft noise control officer ). As you know, in Germany there is some kind of Beauftragte for everything.

 

 

For anyone interested the SERA.5005-F that their answer refers to, can be found at: https://part-aero.com/en/view/part-sera#SERA.5005 and some more general info at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_flight_rules#Low_flying_rules_in_the_EU.

 

It occurs to me that this (as well as their response) has nothing to do with noise at all (surprised?). Those are generally safety regulations (both for the pilots and for the crowds under them). I think this is your typical cop-out response meant to make your complaint irrelevant without really touching the issue of noise at all (hey, they're following the safety minimum regulations so all is well!).

 

Just because they can fly that low, doesn't mean that they should always be as close to the limit as possible, but that's what you get in a society where people strive to follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it. And yeah, "emergencies" are always justified, right?

 

So this is probably the wrong way to go about complaining (altitude) as they use this opportunity to detract from the problem at hand (noise, not safety). But certainly all those flights don't exceed whatever legal decibel limit the law prescribes? That, in a country where even dog barking is legally regulated:

 

Quote

 

Dog barking
Barking has to be kept at a minimum. During quiet hours between 10 p.m. to 6 a.m. and 1 to 3 p.m., dog owners must ensure neighbors are not disturbed by barking, whining or howling. Outside these hours, dog owners must ensure dog noises do not last longer than 10 minutes in a row, respectively exceed 30 minutes cumulatively per day.


 

 

Outstanding.

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Spot on Simon, O Kindered Soul. You see right through the shit and hammer it nicely right on the head. Sorry I cannot give you more greens. Dunno about society tolerating it though. People are just powerless to stop it. :rolleyes:

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If you find hospitals in your area, then you will likely have helicopter flights. US, Germany, etc

If you are in an accident (autobahn, alps, etc) you probably will appreciate that they take you to a hospital rather quickly. Maybe they don't get time to file a flight plan, since accidents are mostly unplanned.

Christoph is the name given to all ADAC rescue helicopters.

If it is loud, that means they are landing. That is the point of delivering a patient. Quicker than lowering someone in a basket while hovering.

Avoid the problem by living away from a hospital.

I live ~ 1km from Rechts der Isar. We can hear them, but not much of an issue. At most a couple times a day. In, out, done.

Complain about emergency flights? They're not doing this for fun. You can't rent or own next to a known potential issue and them come back and complain.

Scenic flights, if they are a thing in Munich, should be banned.

 

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On 18/07/2021, 18:17:41, Simon Pic said:

It has really been a shitshow over here (Bogenhausen/Mauerkirchen). The moment the weather gets better the circus starts.

 

I don't think emergencies account for this.

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On 7/30/2021, 1:50:51, mako1 said:

If you find hospitals in your area, then you will likely have helicopter flights. US, Germany, etc

If you are in an accident (autobahn, alps, etc) you probably will appreciate that they take you to a hospital rather quickly. Maybe they don't get time to file a flight plan, since accidents are mostly unplanned.

Christoph is the name given to all ADAC rescue helicopters.

If it is loud, that means they are landing. That is the point of delivering a patient. Quicker than lowering someone in a basket while hovering.

Avoid the problem by living away from a hospital.

I live ~ 1km from Rechts der Isar. We can hear them, but not much of an issue. At most a couple times a day. In, out, done.

Complain about emergency flights? They're not doing this for fun. You can't rent or own next to a known potential issue and them come back and complain.

Scenic flights, if they are a thing in Munich, should be banned.

 

 

Excuses, excuses. 'The road to hell is always paved with good intentions".

 

First of all, this started the last few years (enough to become noticeable to untolerable). I have been living for 5 years in the exact same spot before this ever became an issue. I intentionally chose to live in this very area 9 years ago, exactly because it was extremely quiet compared to any other neighborhood of Munich. We rarely ever hear an ambulance or firefighter sirens, or would have any reason to complain about it. But flights? Hell yeah. Circus it is.

 

And no, I'm not living next to a hospital. And no, they're not landing. We established this earlier in the thread. They are though flying at altitudes of 850 meters above sea level, while most of Munich is about 520 meters above sea level. This means that they are just above the safety limit of 300 meters, and yeah this is rediculous when it comes to noise.

 

"Scenic flights", are not only not banned, but they are the cherry on the top. At least emergencies are the exception and they serve a real purpose. The truth that noone appears to want to admit here is that this has been getting worse and worse, and the only reason is exactly that everything here is being excused. There's always an excuse.

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@Simon Pic: you could go to your next Bürgerversammlung (citizens’ assembly) of your district, which is organized on a regular basis and put it on the agenda. The police is there as well. They should be able to confirm a possible increase of search orders in your district. 
 

Meanwhile, I have confirmation that rescue helicopters use Theresienwiese as landing zone, but they are gone in 10 minutes. During big events they don’t use it as much. 

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6 minutes ago, LukeSkywalker said:

Meanwhile, I have confirmation that rescue helicopters use Theresienwiese as landing zone, but they are gone in 10 minutes. During big events they don’t use it as much. 

 

They also used to regularly use a landing pad at Bogenhausen hospital, at least they did when I was in there for a couple of weeks, but that was 19 years ago so somewhat surprised that the OP reports it has become an issue in the last 4 years. I live under the flight path of rescue helicopters coming from the south and have not noticed any massive increase in flights in recent years, only the police helicopter at night over the Krone-Park, area though no idea if this is training or the real thing.

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6 minutes ago, LukeSkywalker said:

@Simon Pic: you could go to your next Bürgerversammlung (citizens’ assembly) of your district, which is organized on a regular basis and put it on the agenda. The police is there as well. They should be able to confirm a possible increase of search orders in your district. 
 

Meanwhile, I have confirmation that rescue helicopters use Theresienwiese as landing zone, but they are gone in 10 minutes. During big events they don’t use it as much. 

 

Thanks, I'll see what can be done. I don't know what you mean "increase of search orders" though, the police helicopters are rather rare exception (we had one just today though). The majority is amateur flights, and next up is the various hospital transfer ADAC etc flights that are the noisiest and most frequent.

 

But quite honestly, what's there to discuss? mako1 above is arguing that one shouldn't live next to hospitals/landing pads/etc etc (as if one can know beforehand or have any official response to that, but oh well).

 

Let's say for a moment that this is possible. Again, I'm not even next to any hospital or anything else that justifies landing. It is simply that somehow it has been decided (at least for helicopters) that the path from north to south should go across the English Gardens (possibly as someone else commented for visual flight tracking or something).

 

So really, where should one live? Any arbitrary neighbourhood can be a crossing point between facilities (e.g hospitals), in the end, no matter if it is in any close proximity to anything that necessitates landing.

 

Which means the issue again boils down to flight altitudes, exactly because hospital facilities are spread out in many parts within and around the city, so if they keep crossing as frequent as they do, and at 300m above apartments, there's *ALWAYS* going to be a problem.

 

And now, I'm expecting someone will pop-up and tell me "hey, that's how it is when you live in a big city!", to which I will preemptively respond: "only in germany, friends, only in germany!"

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Well, police helicopters can circle around in your district for 20-30 minutes when they search for a criminal, for example. Rescue helicopters don’t just circle around. This happens in my district as well, but the last 2 weeks it was quiet. 

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Just now, LukeSkywalker said:

Well, police helicopters can circle around in your district for 20-30 minutes when they search for a criminal, for example. Rescue helicopters don’t just circle around. This happens in my district as well, but the last 2 weeks it was quiet. 

 

True, but at least in our neighbour here we pretty much never had anything like that. I have observed many cases of rescue/ADAC flights that make rounds (sometimes in pairs of two helis) around a much wider area stretching from Unterfoehring down to Au, and thus cross multiple times right above us (300m), and this is sufficiently disturbing of course when at the same day you have another 2-3 of those that do hospital transfers (at the same altitudes) AND 5-6 of those private "having fun watching the view" flights at slightly higher yet distressing noisy altitudes. Repeat every few days with some breaks in between. Any sane person would start getting bothered eventually.

 

It has basically reached way above the threshold when it becomes gradually noticeable, moved to irritating, then disturbing, and yes now even traumatic at this point due to its frequency (we always expect it will soon "hit again", and it does without a miss).

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Time to do a video for the incredulous/non-comprehending.

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Just now, optimista said:

Time to do a video for the incredulous/non-comprehending.

 

I guess so! :D

 

"Close your eyes. Picture a really noisy lawnmower. Now imagine that same lawnmower flying around above your apartment like a drone a few times per day at unpredictable times!"

 

Now open your eyes. Here's the video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rJnXZsrMjU

 

(Coming to a Munich neighborhood near you Real Soon Now).

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Lawnmower a bit femininely feeble compared to the virility of The Real Low-Frequency-Thud-Thud-Thudding Thing.

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