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non-stop helicopter and other flights over central munich

75 posts in this topic

..and here's just one of the many "fun flight" paths in its full glory. Most obviously without any purpose, this is without a doubt a leisure thing (for those at the cockpit, that is).

 

That's a Partenavia P68C, "HB-LUZ", SFS60, for the flight aficionados.

 

Is there really no other damn place in Germany (or in Europe) outside of a populate city to enjoy their aircrafts?

 

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1 minute ago, CincyInDE said:

 would suggest getting another hobby.

 

Yes, you're right. We should all live 24/7 with earplugs or just get lobotomized. Because this is so much fun, and we have nothing better to do in life.

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https://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/Stadtverwaltung/Referat-fuer-Gesundheit-und-Umwelt/Laerm/Brennpunkt_Laerm.html

https://orte.muenchen.de/1242979.html

https://ismaning.de/fluglaerm-beschwerdestellen-des-flughafens-muenchen-und-des-luftamtes-suedbayern/

https://www.poing.de/bauen-umwelt/energie-klima/projekte/fluglaerm?print=1

 

Seems like there are numbers you can ring. Good luck with that.

We had a pair of fighter jets over our garden again this morning. Somewhat (understatement) alarming. Cough.

Really I sympathise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Just had a helicopter over in Westend, nearly 30 minutes of noise. Had to close the windows because of it.

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I sent an email to: luftamt@reg-ob.bayern.de

 

Let's wait and see if they reply. As if I live in South Central, LA.

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I received a fast standard reply from the Fluglärmschutzbeauftragte ( aircraft noise control officer ). As you know, in Germany there is some kind of Beauftragte for everything.

 

" die grundsätzlichen rechtlichen Regelungen im Hinblick auf den Luftverkehr nach Sichtflugregeln stellen sich folgendermaßen dar:
 
Im Luftverkehrsrecht gilt der Grundsatz, dass die Benutzung des Luftraums durch Luftfahrzeuge frei ist (§ 1 des Luftverkehrsgesetzes), wenn die Anforderungen erfüllt werden, die luftverkehrsrechtliche Vorschriften an den Betrieb von Luftfahrzeugen stellen. Flüge - auch über bewohntem Gebiet - sind folglich zu jeder Zeit zulässig, wenn insbesondere die vorgeschriebenen Mindesthöhen beachtet werden.

Die Mindesthöhen für Flüge nach Sichtflugregeln werden seit dem 5. Dezember 2014 deutschlandweit durch eine Durchführungsverordnung (EU) Nr. 923/2012 der Europäischen Kommission neu geregelt. Gemäß SERA.5005 Buchstabe f beträgt die Mindesthöhe über Städten, anderen dicht besiedelten Gebieten und Menschenansammlungen im Freien 300 m über dem höchsten Hindernis innerhalb eines Umkreises von 600 m um das Luftfahrzeug. In allen anderen Fällen beträgt die Mindestflughöhe 150 m über dem Boden oder Wasser oder 150 m über dem höchsten Hindernis innerhalb eines Umkreises von 150 m um das Luftfahrzeug. (Eine rechtsverbindliche Definition hinsichtlich des unbestimmten Rechtsbegriffs "dicht besiedelt" kann hier nicht gegeben werden, da dies den unabhängigen Gerichten vorbehalten ist.)

Weiterhin gilt die allgemeine Regel, dass über Städten, anderen dicht besiedelten Gebieten und Menschenansammlungen im Freien in einer Höhe geflogen werden muss, die im Falle einer Notlage eine Landung ohne ungebührende Gefährdung von Personen oder Sachen am Boden erlaubt.

Ein Unterschreiten der Mindesthöhen ist beim Starten und Landen erlaubt.

Sonderrechte gelten für die Bundeswehr, die Bundespolizei und die Polizeien der Länder. Sie dürfen von den Luftverkehrsvorschriften abweichen, wenn dies zur Erfüllung ihrer besonderen Aufgaben unter Berücksichtigung der öffentlichen Sicherheit und Ordnung erforderlich ist (§ 30 des Luftverkehrsgesetzes). Dasselbe gilt für  Such- und Rettungsflüge und Flüge des Zivil- und Katastrophenschutzes. Auch sie dürfen von den vorgeschriebenen Mindesthöhen abweichen, wenn dies zur Hilfeleistung bei einer Gefahr für Leib oder Leben erforderlich ist. Außerdem können für Flüge zu besonderen Zwecken (z.B. zur Befliegung von ober- und unterirdischen Öl-, Gas- und Stromleitungen) Ausnahmen von den vorgeschriebenen Mindesthöhen zugelassen werden, soweit dies für den jeweiligen Zweck erforderlich ist und dadurch keine Gefährdung der öffentlichen Sicherheit und Ordnung eintritt (§ 37 der Luftverkehrs-Ordnung).

Ein Verstoß gegen diese Vorgaben ist ordnungswidrig. In einer rechtlichen Auseinandersetzung liegt die Beweislast bei der Behörde mit ihren Zeugen (Anzeigeerstatter).

Aus rechtlichen Gründen können keine darüber hinausgehende Anforderungen an den Betrieb von Luftfahrzeugen gestellt werden."

 

 

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300 m doesn't seem very far away to have a loud engine. 

 

I suppose they still have to abide by the noise control laws of the Bundesrepublik, Land, und Stadt.  e.g., Bundesrepublik does not allow Freischneider, Grastrimmer, Laubbläser, oder Laubsammler to be used in Wohngebieten other than M-F, 9-12 and 15-17.  BlmSchV § 7(2).  

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15 hours ago, LukeSkywalker said:

I received a fast standard reply


Ein Unterschreiten der Mindesthöhen ist beim Starten und Landen erlaubt.

Sonderrechte gelten...

 

 

 

:lol:

 

Only in Germany.

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14 hours ago, DoubleDTown said:

I suppose they still have to abide by the noise control laws of the Bundesrepublik, Land, und Stadt.

 

Proving they didn't could pose a significant challenge.

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6 hours ago, optimista said:

 

Proving they didn't could pose a significant challenge.

 

I think the time of day would do it.  They might be entitled to fly 300 m over my house, but perhaps not before 7 am or after 8 pm.  Or on Sunday.  Or between 1 and 3 on Saturday.  Or on Feiertags.  I'm entitled to run my lawnmower, but only during certain times.

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No, the email says that flights above residential areas are valid during any time as long as the minimum height is being considered. 
 

BTW- just had another helicopter for 20 minutes here in my hood. I think it was a rescue helicopter landing in the middle of Theresienwiese. Have seen it before on a Sunday.

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22 minutes ago, LukeSkywalker said:

No, the email says that flights above residential areas are valid during any time as long as the minimum height is being considered.

 

I'm sure there is an exception for rescue helicopters, just like emergency land vehicles can blow their Martin's Horn whenever appropriate regardless of Laermschutz regulations. 

 

22 hours ago, LukeSkywalker said:

reply from the Fluglärmschutzbeauftragte ( aircraft noise control officer ).

 

die Benutzung des Luftraums durch Luftfahrzeuge frei ist (§ 1 des Luftverkehrsgesetzes), wenn die Anforderungen erfüllt werden, die luftverkehrsrechtliche Vorschriften an den Betrieb von Luftfahrzeugen stellen. Flüge - auch über bewohntem Gebiet - sind folglich zu jeder Zeit zulässig, wenn insbesondere die vorgeschriebenen Mindesthöhen beachtet werden.

 

Despite this Bundesgesetz, I would still try to assert the local Polizeiverordnung about Laermschutz.  I am pretty sure local city Polizeiverordnungen are stricter, or one could say more comprehensive/detailed, than the Bundesimmissionsgesetz and Bundeslaermschutz Verordnung.  Why couldn't local noise restrictions also trump federal rules on aircraft noise?  Sounds like something Die Gruene in a Stadtrat might get involved with.

 

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So how are you going to prove what height they are at? I swear one nearly took off my chimney pot when I was living in Bogenhausen many years ago. It was madness. But they are never gonna admit they were so low. And who would believe me?

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I assume they still had rotary-dial phones when you lived in Bogenhausen - or was it the telegraph?

 

In any case, all modern smartphones also serve as video cameras nowadays. It shouldn't be too hard to shoot some footage of a chopper that almost took off your chimney pot now.

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25 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

In any case, all modern smartphones also serve as video cameras nowadays. It shouldn't be too hard to shoot some footage of a chopper that almost took off your chimney pot now.

 You have to be joking right? Most people over 18 years old struggle to find and answer a smartphone before the caller is diverted to its mailbox, how on earth do you expect someone to use one to take a video of a low flying aircraft that buzzes low overhead for a second or so?:rolleyes:

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Hardly. I live about 500m away from a small park where our local ADAC medevac helicopter lands around 2-3 times per month. It makes an ungodly amount of noise.

 

The rotor/engine noise gives you at least 2 minutes to find your phone and start the camera recording, which should be enough for any but the least dexterous among us.

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Maybe if you are close to the landing zone but if it is just flying low at high speed, no chance, firstly little time to hear its approach and secondly only a second or so to locate and point the camera as it flashes overhead and is gone!

The police helicopter has been having a lengthy look around the Au, Geising and Unter-Geising in the last couple of days, I would guess training flights as they seem to stay over green areas (Krone Park seems a favourite), we sometimes also get that in the night too, loud and hangs round for a long time.

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44 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

I assume they still had rotary-dial phones when you lived in Bogenhausen - or was it the telegraph?

 

I take a small amount of pleasure in pointing out that this is a beautiful illustration of a bloke (I choose my words advisedly) attempting to invalidate and dismiss the comments of a mere woman. Thank you for providing this opportunity. Yeah, I misunderstood, right?

 

As for filming every passing helicopter... well that may entertain the under-employed but most folk have better ways to spend a life. I would also point out that you do not expect them to be so low in advance. Like flashers, you only know afterwards how far it all went. And you are in a similar state of disbelief / shock which tends to lead to an absence of a rational response, so forget reaching for the phone in such cases. Just not realistic. You are too busy ducking and wondering if the end is nigh.

 

(And do forgive me for wandering into wanker territory. Argument by association and all that... Jeffo, you must not feel targeted or I will think you are an overly sensitive little soul.)

 

 

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