PR status validity if i stay outside Germany for more than 6 months in Non sequential trips

[ToyUser 1]

Hi,

 

As a non-european citizen, Can I lose my German PR status if I stay outside Germany for more than 6 non-sequential months? 

 

For example:  If I stay 5 months sequentially outside Germany (for a family emergency + covid travel restriction), come back to Germany and again stay 2 more sequential months (for work reasons (or) vacation) outside Germany, does this make my PR status invalid/affect my citizenship application in long run? 

 

Thank you, 

[SunshineMarty 7]

Did you ever find the answer out for this elsewhere?

 

I have a very similar question to yours. I'm British and I registered late last year before the end of the transition period, so I have an Aufenthaltstite related to this.  I never really found a number of days mentioned as such, although I did see the concept of a 'habitual residence', which may be more relevant.

 

 

[BethAnnBitt 2,544]

1 hour ago, SunshineMarty said:

I never really found a number of days mentioned as such, although I did see the concept of a 'habitual residence', which may be more relevant.

My cursory understanding is that I should be physically present in 🇩🇪 at least 183 out of the past 365 days.  Of course when I am popping over to Switzerland🇨🇭they are none the wiser.  But I shouldn’t run back home to the the US for a 7 month stay without requesting permission and having a solid reason.  I would suggest firing your case worker an email addressing the question.  The devil is always in the details.

[SunshineMarty 7]

Thanks. I think I'll eventually have to get my German GF to phone up to make absolutely sure I don't fall fowl on any technicality.

 

In the 'Information for United Kingdom nationals and their family members about the right of residence provided for in the Withdrawal Agreement' leaflet it only states on p29,

'if you reside outside Germany for more than six months (in exceptional cases, for more than 12 months), you lose your right of residence under the Withdrawal Agreement.'

I don't have 'Daueraufenthalt', as I'm a relatively new resident, but I guess it still applies and infers a continuous absence.

 

I'm working my way through the  'Gesetz über den Aufenthalt, die Erwerbstätigkeit und die Integration von Ausländern im Bundesgebiet 1)' or rather the English version 'Act on the Residence, Economic Activity and Integration of Foreigners in the Federal Territory 1) Residence Act' (pdf available).

 

Sometimes it's a little difficult to understand exactly what applies in my case.

 

 

 

 

 

[SunshineMarty 7]

It's 6 months total and not per calendar year, but one of these ' in retrospect' years, like the Schengen Visa's 90 in 180.

[travelerworker 73]

Hi, not at expert..just sharing ideas and experiences here

My undestanding is that they don't "actively" check...so it is ok to travel around.

I've heard of a case here when a guy was asked at the airport when coming back "when you left the country?" and he said: 8 months ago...so he got in trouble. Would have said: 2 months ago, he would be ok.

The idea I understand is to settle into germany, not get the paper and go away to came back 5 years later.

If you are working and paying taxes in germany should be ok.

 

[Cybertron 0]

I kind of have the same issue. I had to fly out of Germany due to some personal reason and came back after 5 months... now its been 2 months since I am back in Germany and unfortunately I need to fly out again for a few months. I dont know if I will be allowed back in the next time...

[SunshineMarty 7]

If the reason for having to travel is extremely important, then I think you can call up and talk to your local foreigners office, to get permission. This used to be the case.

I don't know the checks on time at the border. I would guess that it's  getting more automated though the Schengen Zone. How for example do they know a tourist has been here longer than the 90 in 180 days? Does any one know anyone that has had trouble with this?

I would think it's the same for the 6 months in a year for residence. Then is the information passed on to the respective people to act.

Personally I won't risk going over the 6 month limit.

[Berlinexpatnine 19]

I just tried to research this issue, and my understanding is that you could maintain permanent residency by visiting Germany once every 6 months. However, they might start wondering if you have taken a job or have started some sort of university or training program outside Germany, and that would definitely be a problem that would cause immediate loss of permanent residency. In fact, any sort of permanent arrangements abroad, even caring for a sick parent for many months on end, might make them think that your "Lebenszentrum" is now outside Germany and cause you to lose permanent residency. However, if you were just some world traveler who wanted to see the world as a tourist or visit relatives on a temporary basis, I don't think that would be a problem.  Also, fulfilling compulsory military service requirements of your home country seems to cause no problem for permanent residency as long as you return to Germany within three months of completing your service.

 

If someone knows otherwise, please let me know I'm wrong. Every website seems to give a straightforward answer of "don't leave for more than 6 months, don't make permanent arrangements (job/education/other activity) that require you to live outside Germany".

 

 

[engelchen 13,034]

9 minutes ago, Berlinexpatnine said:

I just tried to research this issue, and my understanding is that you could maintain permanent residency by visiting Germany once every 6 months.

 

Keep researching. You have not correctly understood the law.

 

 

[Berlinexpatnine 19]

If it is really 183 of the last 365 days, why can't I find a single site stating that? They all say you lose your permanent residency automatically six months after you leave Germany (plus other conditions, like that you aren't establishing a permanent life for yourself outside Germany by signing up for a university degree program or taking a job, for example, which would mean immediate loss of permanent residency).

 

Please help out here. I really can't find it and I need to advise a close friend. I feel like I'm trying to prove a negative, which is impossible. Where can I find the 183/365 law?

 

The Berlin site says this, for example:

 

Niederlassungserlaubnis

• Eine Niederlassungserlaubnis erlischt ab 6 Monaten nach der Ausreise aus Deutschland.

 

Also from the German law itself, if I picked the right law to quote:

 

(1) Der Aufenthaltstitel erlischt in folgenden Fällen:
 

wenn der Ausländer ausgereist und nicht innerhalb von sechs Monaten oder einer von der Ausländerbehörde bestimmten längeren Frist wieder eingereist ist,

[jeba 4,163]

2 hours ago, Berlinexpatnine said:

Also from the German law itself, if I picked the right law to quote:

 

(1) Der Aufenthaltstitel erlischt in folgenden Fällen:
 

wenn der Ausländer ausgereist und nicht innerhalb von sechs Monaten oder einer von der Ausländerbehörde bestimmten längeren Frist wieder eingereist ist,

Isn´t that clear enough? I´m not a lawyer but to me it seems to say that you´ll lose your pr if you don´t return within 6 months, except the aliens office granted you an extension.

[Berlinexpatnine 19]

I agree that it is clear, but I didn't understand why I was being contradicted in my interpretation. This idea about 183 days out of the previous 365 seems to be pulled out of thin air, but it's difficult to prove a negative. However, it sounds like someone tried to apply the 90/180 tourist visa rule to permanent residency through extrapolation.

[engelchen 13,034]

2 hours ago, Berlinexpatnine said:

If it is really 183 of the last 365 days,

 

That is not it either.

 

2 hours ago, Berlinexpatnine said:

why can't I find a single site stating that?

 

If you find one random website stating what you want to hear, you'll believe that?  Random websites are not necessarily accurate. You should read the Verwaltungsvorschriften and the relevant case law.

 

2 hours ago, Berlinexpatnine said:

I really can't find it and I need to advise a close friend.

 

You don't understand the law well enough to advise anyone. If you really want to help your friend, send him to the ABH to obtain permission for a longer stay abroad. 

 

 

[Berlinexpatnine 19]

My friend has been bouncing back and forth from Germany to Italy for as long as 6 weeks at a time, continuing their online courses in Germany while also taking some language courses at schools that specialize in language vacations. They also come back for exams. I saw nothing wrong with that, but now this thread has planted the idea that someone could total all the time they spend abroad and claim that they were now living abroad -- meaning that they no longer had any right to permanent residency.

 

I think the situation is pretty straightforward according to the communications of the official ABH sites, but people posting contradictory info on this board has me worried. 

[engelchen 13,034]

6 hours ago, Berlinexpatnine said:

My friend has been bouncing back and forth from Germany to Italy for as long as 6 weeks at a time, continuing their online courses in Germany while also taking some language courses at schools that specialize in language vacations. They also come back for exams.

 

The devil is in the details. From your vague statements it is not clear whether your friend is just visiting or actually living here. 

 

If your friend wants an accurate assessment, your friend will have to provide much more detailed information. 

 

If your friend wants free advice, I'd recommend info4alien.de. If your friend does not want to post detailed info online, he should ask a lawyer. 

[SunshineMarty 7]

On 11/15/2021, 11:42:56, Berlinexpatnine said:

This idea about 183 days out of the previous 365 seems to be pulled out of thin air

 

It wasn't pulled out of thin air. We (my GF) phoned up the local office and that is what we were told.

Now it would be nice for this to be confirmed from some other source I totally agree, especially written from an official source. We did ask 'was there a minimum amount of time needed per year, to be spent in DE to maintain my temporary residence'.

 

On 11/14/2021, 9:50:50, Berlinexpatnine said:

my understanding is that you could maintain permanent residency by visiting Germany once every 6 months

 

With that I could visit Germany for 1 full day every 4 months and maintain my residence! 3 days a year, sounds unlikely. Looks like there must be more clauses to be taken into account ?

 

On 11/15/2021, 11:58:06, engelchen said:

That is not it either.

 

So engelchen please enlighten us on exactly what it is . 

 

 

 

[engelchen 13,034]

 

2 hours ago, SunshineMarty said:

So engelchen please enlighten us on exactly what it is . 

 

What part of this statement did you not understand? 

 

On 15/11/2021, 19:52:51, engelchen said:

 

The devil is in the details. From your vague statements it is not clear whether your friend is just visiting or actually living here. 

 

There are different laws that apply depending on a foreigner's individual circumstances. None of the explanations offered up in this thread are true in all cases and are mostly just conjecture by people who've not even bothered to read the actual laws.

[SunshineMarty 7]

19 hours ago, engelchen said:

 

 

What part of this statement did you not understand? 

 

 

There are different laws that apply depending on a foreigner's individual circumstances. None of the explanations offered up in this thread are true in all cases and are mostly just conjecture by people who've not even bothered to read the actual laws.

 

So where do you go online to read the actual laws on this issue in particular? I would like to confirm that what the person at the foreigners office in my town told my GF about 6 months in one year ( Conjecture? ). Have you seen/read anything like this? If so I'd appreciate you helping me in guiding me to where that is thanks.

[TurMech 159]

The topic below might be relevant to those, who would like to stay longer than 6 months abroad without losing their PR!

 

https://www.info4alien.de/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1643629477