The Vegetarian's Dilemma

126 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Gambatte said:

Can't we just call beans beans (like soy, for instance) and not to artificially call them "fake meat", or "meat substitutes"?

The terms seem to me an artificial unnecessary useless invention 

 

But they are not just plain beans or soy.  It is a mixture of a gazillion of ingredients with the single purpose of resemble meat texture, flavour, etc, and nowadays even meat "blood".

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1 hour ago, kiplette said:

Rainforest is being destroyed to make space to grow soy. 

 

Mainly to feed to animals which are eventually slaughtered for food. Most soy in the world is used for animal feed.

Now if humans ate the soy instead of the animals, we could get by with a lot less.

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I see. I had no clue.

Well, if this is what consumers want fine. My preference is FEW ingredients is better than more. 

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4 minutes ago, Jonny said:

 

Mainly to feed to animals which are eventually slaughtered for food. Most soy in the world is used for animal feed.

Now if humans ate the soy instead of the animals, we could get by with a lot less.

 

And corn.   We have indirectly eaten so much corn that nowadays some crazy amount of the carbon building our bodies came from corn.   

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2 minutes ago, Jonny said:

 

Mainly to feed to animals which are eventually slaughtered for food. Most soy in the world is used for animal feed.

Now if humans ate the soy instead of the animals, we could get by with a lot less.

Yet many meat eaters insist on saying "agriculture causes deforestation and damages the environment therefore better eat more meat instead":blink::wacko:.

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2 hours ago, Krieg said:

If we only eat ethical things we would starve, yes, we should try to do our best, but there is no perfect solution because we are way too many people in the planet.  As long as we move in the right direction then it is ok, for example, if you replace some cow meat with soy based fake meat the balance is still positive.

 

This is definitely true.

 

2 hours ago, Krieg said:

And anyway, if you care about the planet we are talking about peanuts here, you could continue eating steaks every day thee times a day and still have a more positive impact if you stop buying stuff transported by boat from the other side of the world.

 

This unfortunately isn't always true (eg. herehere and here). It's complicated. It's all about efficiency.

 

I believe many locally grown German apples are stored for long times so that they are available all year. It's local, but it aint green. In this case, better to buy local AND in season.

 

I read somewhere (can't find it now) how growing your own food in the garden isn't even always the most eco friendly option either. Basically, farms have perfected the process and your average home grower will use way more resources to produce their food. Better just to get it from the farm down the road.

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2 minutes ago, theGman said:

This unfortunately isn't always true (eg. herehere and here). It's complicated. It's all about efficiency.

 

I believe many locally grown German apples are stored for long times so that they are available all year. It's local, but it aint green. In this case, better to buy local AND in season.

 

I read somewhere (can't find it now) how growing your own food in the garden isn't even always the most eco friendly option either. Basically, farms have perfected the process and your average home grower will use way more resources to produce their food. Better just to get it from the farm down the road.

 

I was not talking about buying food from far away, I am aware that in some cases it is the best option.  And I am totally aware that farming our own food is not really optimal, we do it every year as a hobby, but at a low scale.

 

I was talking about buying GOODS from the other side of the world.  You know, the high levels of consumption we have nowadays, buying crap we do not need that travel by boat from the other side of the planet.

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2 hours ago, Gambatte said:

Can't we just call beans beans (like soy, for instance) and not to artificially call them "fake meat", or "meat substitutes"?

The terms seem to me an artificial unnecessary useless invention 

Because many Vegans and vegetarians like to have their vegan "sausages,hamburgers" etc.

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2 hours ago, Gambatte said:

The terms seem to me an artificial unnecessary useless invention 

 

I agree very much with this.

 

KId#1 went veggie whilst still at home, and I never went for all this fakery.

 

She now does, and when she is here I do buy Quorn products, but essentially they are highly processed and this feels weird and like a backward step.

 

3 hours ago, Krieg said:

if you stop buying stuff transported by boat from the other side of the world.

 

Yes, I suspect the fashion inustry has much to answer for on this, and all that useless crap which changes on a weekly basis in the shops. 

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48 minutes ago, Keleth said:

Because many Vegans and vegetarians like to have their vegan "sausages,hamburgers" etc.

 

None of the vegetarians I know like that stuff. That seems mostly marketed at people like me. I likes me meat but I'm trying to cut down. Works too. Beyond Meat burgers are pretty tasty imo.

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It's funny, I'm not a vegetarian but I don't like meat, and I always preferred a Garden Burger over one of these things that are supposed to taste like "meat", and Tofurkey and the like.

 

Really, sooo many of the vegans and vegetarians I know are into eating fake, over-processed, over-packaged products with 29847 ingredients that are supposed to taste like "dairy" or "meat."  I don't even care for bacon but I'm offended on its behalf.  Have you ever seen those fake bacon strips?  *shudder*

 

I love soy.  I love soy milk, I love tofu, I love soy granulate, give it all to me.  And then someone pokes their head around the corner and wants to "remind" me how bad soy is for the planet and how anyone who's not a jerk has already switched to oat milk.   Please go bother the industrial vegans and the meat-every-day people and leave me in peace.

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On 5/20/2021, 4:11:48, MikeMelga said:

The Spanish system is simple: south is very hot and sunny, but dry. So they divert water to the south. This gives them great productions. But at the expenses of messing up all water systems in the iberian peninsula. They could shift production further north, but of course it would be less profitable.

 

Sounds a lot like California...  

 

Quote

But they are not just plain beans or soy.  It is a mixture of a gazillion of ingredients with the single purpose of resemble meat texture, flavour, etc, and nowadays even meat "blood".

 

I'd agree that generally, the less processed or additive-laced the better, and that can vary from product to product. But read the nutritional info, read the ingredients, judge each product individually. Some are good, some are crap, like anything else. I don't ever buy "vegetarian lunchmeat" for example because their nutritional profile is awul (I don't eat much Tierisches lunch meat either, come to think of it), like are stuffed with palm fat fer crissake. But some really are just 3-4 simple things. People who hate on soy should remember that it fueled centuries of warlord armies in China and Japan. 

 

People get their knickers in a twist over "chemical" ingredients, but fakemeats are not nearly as 'bad' as imagined. An evening of boozing is far worse than a textured soy protein 'schnitzel'. Rügenwalder Mühlen Hack for example (we use time to time it in vegetarian chili or tacos) is: water, 26% soy protein, vinegar, oil, salt, flavouring and caramel (colour). That's it.

 

More generally, personally, I don't think it is wrong with liking things that taste like other things, or half the food we eat would not exist. When's the last time anyone chewed a spoon of black peppercorns raw, raw cacao beans instead of icecream, or a handful of mint leaves instead of gum? Long live artifice. 

 

23 hours ago, Krieg said:

And corn.   We have indirectly eaten so much corn that nowadays some crazy amount of the carbon building our bodies came from corn.   

 

We can go one further and say we are (as Sagan said) all just made of star stuff. We are recycled exhaust of long-dead orbital nuclear fusion reactors. Corn was only borrowing it from a decomposed crow, mammoth, crab, stegosaur and pre-Cambrian bacterial slime sheet.

 

20 hours ago, theGman said:

None of the vegetarians I know like that stuff. That seems mostly marketed at people like me. I likes me meat but I'm trying to cut down. Works too. Beyond Meat burgers are pretty tasty imo.

 

My observation too, but depends on the length of one's vegetarianism perhaps. Some don't even like e.g. smokey flavours at all because it reminds of meat. If I buy smoked cheese (drool), my wife will make "ick, smells like ham" comments.

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5 hours ago, alderhill said:

More generally, personally, I don't think it is wrong with liking things that taste like other things, or half the food we eat would not exist. When's the last time anyone chewed a spoon of black peppercorns raw, raw cacao beans instead of icecream, or a handful of mint leaves instead of gum? Long live artifice. 

 

I don't know if that's an appropriate equivalency.  You add pepper to other foods, you don't make fake pepper out of a hundred things that aren't pepper.  You use cocoa in ice cream, you don't make artificial cocoa (well, there's carob, but I don't think that's what you're talking about).  Mint extract/essence is added to gum. Not the same at all.  They're just ingredients.

 

I will confess that I eat "veggie" slices daily, but they're made from milk protein, so the animal didn't necessarily die, but probably still suffered :/ again, I'm not vegetarian, I just don't like meat.  And the veggie slices don't market themselves as Mortadella, but to me it tastes almost the same, except without ground up pig bits in it.

 

It's actually none of my business how vegetarians feed themselves, I just find it a little funny that in the end people who eat stuff that is manufactured to resemble animal products wind up outing themselves as basically jealous of meat- and dairy-eaters, when a good chunk of the former definitely consider themselves morally superior to consumers of animal products.  There are honestly so so so so so many things to eat in the world, being vegan is not that hard as long as you don't have meat-and-cheese envy, or need to "replace" things from your old life. (I purchase nutritional yeast by the kilo--cheaper that way--and consume it daily.)  I love vegetarian food primarily because it doesn't have meat in it, which is (to me, ha ha) objectively disgusting.  And vegetables are just so wonderful. And also cow milk is gross.  (But quark, sour cream, cheese, yogurt are all foods of the gods LOL)

 

Fake stuff is fine, everybody can do what they want to do, but they shouldn't be surprised if someone fails to take them seriously once in a while, especially if they're big into "vocal vegetarianism."  It's like, dude, your diet could, should even, be so much more interesting than a frankly lazy plate of meat, potatoes and one veg but here you are wolfing down glow-in-the-light neon pink bacon, loooooooooolz!  Just say you're mad cos you're jealous and your entire personality would be completely invalidated if you ate a piece of meat every once in a while.

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Some years ago vegans were a pain in the butt because they were very militant and drama queens, you went with one of them to a restaurant and they would sight and talk for ten minutes about how restaurants do not cater for them and how their life was so difficult.  But nowadays, at least in Berlin, like half of the people are either vegan or vegetarians and plenty of restaurant cater for them, even fast food joints.  So fortunately the attention seekers mostly stopped or probably moved to complain about something that i am not aware of.

 

I guess this was only a Berlin issue, or probably happened as well in other cities with high concentration of hipsters.  Fortunately veganism is now mainstream

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@Tap, I think it was, and @kiplette too I think?  What's the reason you don't buy rice anymore?  I did some googling but could only find that a lot of rice contains arsenic, which is putting some people off it.  Was that it or was there another humanitarian/political reason?  It was the wording that got me, both of you wrote that you don't "buy" it rather than that you don't "eat" it.

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Because technically rice causes more damage to the planet than cow meat.

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30 minutes ago, dessa_dangerous said:

@Tap, I think it was, and @kiplette too I think?  What's the reason you don't buy rice anymore?  I did some googling but could only find that a lot of rice contains arsenic, which is putting some people off it.  Was that it or was there another humanitarian/political reason?  It was the wording that got me, both of you wrote that you don't "buy" it rather than that you don't "eat" it.

 

I cut back on rice after a discussion and some research on how rice is grown today. It’s similar to the almond milk discussion where over production is putting too much demand on water resources.  Of course, there are cultures and people who depend on rice, it’s part of their basic diet, but like everything else, the demand and over-production is causing problems.  I still eat rice, on occasion, but not so regularly.

This is how rice is hurting the planet | World Economic Forum (weforum.org)

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Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read.

 

Well, as usual, I conclude that the food isn't the problem, the population is.  You've got, let's say, at least 3-4 billion people eating rice as a staple every day, some for every meal, with over half of those living in just two (!) countries.  I don't know if India and China consider themselves to be overpopulated, but for sure overall, many of our practices would be sustainable on much smaller scales.

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1 hour ago, dessa_dangerous said:

Well, as usual, I conclude that the food isn't the problem, the population is.

 

...and the real root cause is that there are too many of them.  The globe is over-populated & as more people need to be fed its no wonder that there are consequences.

But telling certain religions & governments that their people should not reproduce so much doesn't go down well.

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