Arbeitsamt thinks I was employed when I wasn't

[ExPattheDog 33]

Hey, yet another question about how to refute false claims...

 

The arbeistamt is claiming back 3,5k because they incorrectly believe I was employed from August & September in 2018, when in reality I was only employed as of October. I have written dozens of letters and still they don't recognise it. Anyone have any idea how I can convince them review their records to correct the error? Writing letters explaining the situation doesn't seem to be helping

 

Thank you

[dessa_dangerous 13,291]

Employed or freelance?

 

What is your situation now?  Are you still employed or freelancing with the same companies?

 

In my case, failing to file that I hadn't done any freelancing during a time I was employed but had a freelancing tax number caused them to do this paperwork for me and "assume" an amount of money which I had never made freelancing in my wildest dreams.  In that case, I sent them the paperwork (and yes, I sent them the same tax forms multiple times) and eventually they only let off after I went to the Finanzamt and officially surrendered my tax ID.

 

You mention sending letters, and, sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but did you send them all of your end-of-year tax info for that year from all your employers and/or clients?

 

I've had them respond to letters explaining how they got the situation wrong, which were always met with demands for more paperwork, which I often wound up sending them in triplicate, four-plicate, before the issue was finally rectified.  The letters on their own have never been enough in my case.

[ExPattheDog 33]

4 hours ago, dessa_dangerous said:

Employed or freelance?

 

What is your situation now?  Are you still employed or freelancing with the same companies?

 

In my case, failing to file that I hadn't done any freelancing during a time I was employed but had a freelancing tax number caused them to do this paperwork for me and "assume" an amount of money which I had never made freelancing in my wildest dreams.  In that case, I sent them the paperwork (and yes, I sent them the same tax forms multiple times) and eventually they only let off after I went to the Finanzamt and officially surrendered my tax ID.

 

You mention sending letters, and, sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but did you send them all of your end-of-year tax info for that year from all your employers and/or clients?

 

I've had them respond to letters explaining how they got the situation wrong, which were always met with demands for more paperwork, which I often wound up sending them in triplicate, four-plicate, before the issue was finally rectified.  The letters on their own have never been enough in my case.

 

Yikes! That sounds awful 

 

I'm now employed but with a different company, and haven't ever been registered as a freelancer. They haven't sent me any forms to fill and tbh I wish they would! It feels like I'm talking to a wall... out of every 5 letters I send I get 1 response just restating their claim without taking in any of the information I provided them into account 

 

 

[skinnypuppy 46]

15 minutes ago, ExPattheDog said:

 

Yikes! That sounds awful 

 

I'm now employed but with a different company, and haven't ever been registered as a freelancer. They haven't sent me any forms to fill and tbh I wish they would! It feels like I'm talking to a wall... out of every 5 letters I send I get 1 response just restating their claim without taking in any of the information I provided them into account 

 

 

After a few years in Germany you should realise that the Finanzamt rarely sends out forms unrequested unless they're demanding money. They would prefer to berate/punish you for not doing what you didn't know you were supposed to do .

In your place I would gather up all relevant documents, copy them and make an appointment to see your friendly neighbourhood Beamter*in in person, despite the Corona situation. Good luck!

[ExPattheDog 33]

Just now, skinnypuppy said:

After a few years in Germany you should realise that the Finanzamt rarely sends out forms unrequested unless they're demanding money. They would prefer to berate/punish you for not doing what you didn't know you were supposed to do .

In your place I would gather up all relevant documents, copy them and make an appointment to see your friendly neighbourhood Beamter*in in person, despite the Corona situation. Good luck!

 

its not the finanzamt that's requesting money, its the  arbeitsamt -- the finanzamt so far hasn't been  involved at all

 

I keep sending them info but nothing new from them

[dessa_dangerous 13,291]

37 minutes ago, ExPattheDog said:

They haven't sent me any forms to fill and tbh I wish they would!

 

yeah, no.  That's not how they operate.  It's Germany, no one is going to hold your hand, as much as that would be absolutely lovely. You are supposed to be proactive and go get the forms or print them out.  If you don't know what to get then go down to the Finanzamt and ask them to advise you, that is what they are there for.  You did not answer my question about whether you sent them your end-of-year tax info from your employer in 2018,  You may also need to provide them with bank printouts.  You can edit these in a document program to take out all irrelevant information and just include what went into your bank account for each month of that year.  Good luck.

[HH_Sailor 2,805]

Assuming your German is up to it, call them up and arrange for an appointment. Take all your paperwork...

[ExPattheDog 33]

Really at a loss here. I have sent my bank statements proving unemployment & the employer themselves has told them I was unemployed, but they are still insisting I was employed. I have no idea what to do by now. I have given them all of the documents they need to prove this, and they are willfully ignoring it. Any idea what to do? 

 

Side note, I asked what they needed to prove it and provided it multiple times, and they are just robotically sending the same letters

[engelchen 12,995]

You can try contacting the Fachaufsicht and tell them you want to file a Fachaufsichtsbeschwerde:  https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/vor-ort/rd-bb/content/1533717773724

 

You might want to also get a copy of your Versicherungsverlauf from the DRV. 

[ExPattheDog 33]

thought I’d give an update on this. 
 

the Arbeitsamt finally closed the case after speaking with my employer in august. However, 2 years ago apparently they reported me to the state before speaking with my employer, and now the Staatsanwaltschaft is threatening me with a fine or arrest. Ironically the Staatsanwaltschaft says even though the Arbeitsamt dropped it after they spoke with my employer, it doesn’t change the 2019 ruling. Even more maddening, I didn’t learn about the 2019 ruling until 2021, after it was resolved with the Arbeitsamt.
 

https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/391187-scary-letter-from-staatenswaltschaft/?do=findComment&comment=3904573

[HEM 10,420]

Did you follow @engelchen's advice?

 

 

[optimista 5,281]

14 minutes ago, ExPattheDog said:

Staatsanwaltschaft says even though the Arbeitsamt dropped it after they spoke with my employer, it doesn’t change the 2019 ruling.

 

They need to provide detailed reasoning for that statement.

[El Jeffo 41,238]

1 hour ago, optimista said:

 

They need to provide detailed reasoning for that statement.

 

No, they don't. The verdict was issued in 2019 and is now legally binding, because the appeal period has already passed without response. It's a bureaucratic SNAFU, to be sure, but one that will require legal expertise to resolve.

 

Stop giving bad advice. You're not helping anyone and you can do real harm if the OP listens to you.

[ExPattheDog 33]

1 hour ago, El Jeffo said:

 

No, they don't. The verdict was issued in 2019 and is now legally binding, because the appeal period has already passed without response. It's a bureaucratic SNAFU, to be sure, but one that will require legal expertise to resolve.

 

Stop giving bad advice. You're not helping anyone and you can do real harm if the OP listens to you.

 

How is it legal for the appeal period to pass without notifying the person to whom it applies? The utterly blows my mind

[El Jeffo 41,238]

Just now, ExPattheDog said:

 

How is it legal for the appeal period to pass without notifying the person to whom it applies? The utterly blows my mind

 

Mine, too, but in their little bureaucratic corner, all the boxes have been checked, so computer says no.

 

It's fairly obvious that some paperwork was lost - perhaps several times - at some point. Did you move in 2019, by chance?

[ExPattheDog 33]

9 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

 

Mine, too, but in their little bureaucratic corner, all the boxes have been checked, so computer says no.

 

It's fairly obvious that some paperwork was lost - perhaps several times - at some point. Did you move in 2019, by chance?

 

Yes, I moved in 2019 (I registered my new address then as well). When I finally received the notification of it, it had an old address of mine from 2018 (even though I re-registered at new addresses twice since then) which they had scratched out and written my new address next to it. 

 

Do you think it helps my cause that I was never notified back then? I explained this situation to them 

 

I'm also happening that this can still be appealed now based on the fact the the arbeitsamt who initially reported this to the staatsanwalt have clarified the issue - therefor, the reason for the fine has already been corrected by them & they decided I don't owe them any money.

 

Do you think the bureaucratic madness will factor that in as well?

 

Or is it possible that an arrest warrant has now even been issued without me being notified, and I can basically consider it a possibility a cop will show up at my door anytime to arrest me?

[El Jeffo 41,238]

Can we please keep the conversation on this to one thread?

 

Yes, if you can reasonably prove that you never received notification of any of this, I think there's an excellent chance that the judgment will be voided. As I mentioned in the other thread, you'll probably need a lawyer to navigate this particularly tricky corner of German bureaucracy. The district attorney has already indicated that they plan to pursue it even though the underlying cause has been rectified, because the situation has been fucked up enough that they have no other choice on their own prerogative. You'll need a lawyer to unfuck it.

 

[optimista 5,281]

You are quite sure they are incapable of unfucking themselves ?  Then agin considering the state of the German they use in their correspondance... could be asking a lot.