UK pension S1 form and Krankenkasse agreement

72 posts in this topic

15 hours ago, engelchen said:

Admission to the public health care system in Germany is laid out in SGB V and if a public health insurance company admits you by error, they can turn around and correct their mistake at a later date and you have a huge problem.

That problem could be mitigated though by paying for an "Anwartschaft" for your private health insurance (costs only about 15-20% of the regular premium in my experience with Hallesche Nationale) which would give you an option to fall back on in case the public health insurance realize their error and kick you out.

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6 hours ago, jeba said:

That problem could be mitigated though by paying for an "Anwartschaft" for your private health insurance (costs only about 15-20% of the regular premium in my experience with Hallesche Nationale) which would give you an option to fall back on in case the public health insurance realize their error and kick you out.

Interesting idea, but then if the public health insurance were to be back-cancelled for the period due to 'mistake', I would have had no insurance, because the Anwartschaft does not provide any insurance cover. This could potentially lead to a massive back-payments bill :(

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20 hours ago, john g. said:

You can only register your S1 with a “ statutory “ ( German public insurance provider ) if you are already with a German public insurance provider. You are not🙁. You are privately insured and have been for quite a while. 
Unfortunately- due to the loss of Freedom of Movement now🙁- I cannot see how you could move to another European country outside Germany, get into that country’s public system for a minimum 12 months and then move back to Germany and into their public system. That boat has sailed.

I think I may have found a solution, although not one that will be useful to many others.

According to NL law, I have a legal right to live there because my son (now a Dutch citizen) is married to a Dutch citizen. The SVB (Soziale Verzekeringsbank) tell me that I am eligible to enrol in the public system with my S1.

Germany (bless its cotton socks) has adopted a declaratory approach (I auto-get the right to live here) to UK citizens in DE. This means that I must request Aufenthaltsdokument-GB (residence document) from the Ausländerbehörde within five years of having left DE, and I will be covered by the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement.  At the point of re-entering Germany, I would then have the right to enrol in the public system, as I would be coming from one.

@john g. I would very much appreciate your confirmation of the above. Time is extremely tight, to say the least.

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Looks good, Maine! Make sure you stay at least 12 months in the Dutch health system!

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It is not so often that posters show their appreciation of Toytowners offering free information/ advice within their specialised areas - so thank you for your last post!👍

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On 3.5.2021, 13:59:52, MaineCoon said:

This means that I must request Aufenthaltsdokument-GB (residence document) from the Ausländerbehörde within five years of having left DE, and I will be covered by the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement.  At the point of re-entering Germany, I would then have the right to enrol in the public system, as I would be coming from one.

 

Not getting this first bit.  You presumably have (or have applied for) an Aufenthaltsdocument GB?En

 

And when you have one, do you know how long you can live outside Germany, and not lose it?  I guess this is relveant to many British, and I would be very interested to know what restrictions there are. 

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On 3.5.2021, 13:59:52, MaineCoon said:

According to NL law, I have a legal right to live there because my son (now a Dutch citizen) is married to a Dutch citizen.

 

This is interesting.  Any links?  

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@snowingagain Here you go. Enjoy! 

See this: "Enabling a family member or relative to come to the Netherlands", https://ind.nl/en/Forms/3085.pdf

 

Although the page doesn't explicitly say so, NL smiles upon direct bloodlines (mother, father, sister), and rather less so for the cousin 6 times removed.

 

Also see "Stay with a family member, if the family member you are staying with is a Dutch, EU/EEA or Swiss citizen."  https://ind.nl/en/Pages/temporary-and-non-temporary-purposes-of-stay.aspx

 

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1 hour ago, snowingagain said:

Not getting this first bit.  You presumably have (or have applied for) an Aufenthaltsdocument GB?

And when you have one, do you know how long you can live outside Germany, and not lose it?

No, I haven't applied because the moving-to-NL concept has priority.

Given the ubiquitousness of computers, and the freedom with which govts share our data, I think applying for residency in both NL and DE would be a stupid game to play.

 

Not applying for the Aufenthaltsdokument-GB right now does not matter, because, under the Withdrawal Agreement, I have the right to stay in DE IFF I apply before I've been in NL for 5 years.

Note: the 5-year period starts to run *only* after I leave Germany, *not* after Dec.31.2020 / Jan.01.2021 / Jun.31.2021.

That right ceases to exist after I've been away from DE for 5 years + 1 day.  So, a decent timeframe to play in.

 

I need to do much more homework, but I'm seriously considering 'staying' in NL and applying for a permanent residency certificate (PRC), which brings the very desirable "EU permanent residence permit" with it, thus effectively returning my FoM to me.

Armed with a PRC, at any point in time I can 'move' to Germany in much the same way we did b4 bloody Brexit.

 

Note 1: an NL resident with a temporary (ie. limited to 5 years) can only spend 90 out of every 180-day period outside of NL.

Note 2: an NL resident with a PRC can stay outside NL for up to two years w/o losing their PRC.

Note 3: A DE resident can stay outside DE for only 6 months before losing their PRC.

So everything hangs or falls on border checks: will they step up due to Covid, or not?

 

Brexit: there's a lot still undecided and to be determined. I think the smart thing to do atm is to try to keep one's options as open as possible whilst they all play out.  To 100% commit to anything right now would be almost as foolish as handing responsibility for one's insurance to an agent (sigh).

 

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2 minutes ago, MaineCoon said:

Not applying for the Aufenthaltsdokument-GB right now does not matter, because, under the Withdrawal Agreement, I have the right to stay in DE IFF I apply before I've been in NL for 5 years.    Note: *not* after Dec.31.2020 / Jan.01.2021 / Jun.31.2021, *only* after I leave Germany.

 

I really do not understand this!  Sorry, I know you are busy.

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Just now, snowingagain said:

I really do not understand this!  Sorry, I know you are busy.

Don't worry, it gave me brain damage too when I first started looking at it.

 

Below are the relevant parts of my notes, based on the research I've done.  Read them carefully, including ALL the links.

No one situation is the same, and obvs my notes are (a) directly relevant to me, and (b) incomplete, so be careful.

 

Apart from that, DuckDuckGo is your friend :)

––––

 

Residence in Germany

Dec.2020: Germany has adopted a declaratory approach (yay! cool Germany!). https://britishingermany.org/2020/12/04/residency-in-germany-after-transition/

 

 

Pros and Cons, NL -vs- DE:

  • NL: I can get [permanent residency], which will effectively return my FoM to me. Need to get temp residency 1st; can only apply for perm. after having been in NL for 5 years.

  • NL: Under the WA, UK nationals auto-get a national residence permit for permanent residence. This may also include a residence permit as an EU long-term resident in the Netherlands, ie. an “EU permanent residence permit”, aka “long-term resident EC. If my application does not meet certain requirements, then an NL-only permanent residence permit will be given instead.

    Note: you can lose your right to permanent residence if you live outside the country for more than 2 consecutive years. Permanent residence effectively returns my FoM to me - see Pensioners – residence rights and the various links from that page.

  • NL: With a temporary (5-yr) residence permit, I can only spend 90/180 days in DE; the rest must be spent in NL

  • DE: Under the WA, I will auto-get a temp residence permit (renewable every 2 yrs). I am then entitled to apply for a perm settlement permit - BUT the perm. settlement permit expires if I leave DE for more than 6 consecutive months. link

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Maybe snowing again is referring to the current strong belief that the GB document HAS to be organised before the end of June otherwise the sky will fall in.

 

This is not true, but it is probably true that the longer you leave it, the harder it will be to get the thing without a fight. Therefore sodding off to NL for years seems a dodgy gambit.

 

The NL deal does look superior, though.  Except if you use your FoM to shove off for more than 2 years you lose everything? If I understood that correctly? Then it's not really proper FoM but certainly better than a kick in the head.

 

Maybe.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, kiplette said:

Maybe snowing again is referring to the current strong belief that the GB document HAS to be organised before the end of June otherwise the sky will fall in.

 

This is not true, but it is probably true that the longer you leave it, the harder it will be to get the thing without a fight. Therefore sodding off to NL for years seems a dodgy gambit.

 

It was confusing.  I know the end of June thing is not set in stone.   But actually leaving Germany now and being able to apply for the Aufenhaltsdokument GB for up to 5 years sounded odd.  Think we may have some wires crossed.

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Maybe - there are certainly plenty of wires around to knit with!

 

I find it interesting that different European countries have come up with different strategies, not an EU wide solution. The NL offer is interesting.

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23 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

 But actually leaving Germany now and being able to apply for the Aufenhaltsdokument GB for up to 5 years sounded odd.  Think we may have some wires crossed.

 

I think it is just wishful thinking. The explanations available on websites are just superficial explanations of standard cases, i.e. a Brit who was resident in Germany on Dec 31, 2020, and remains living in Germany has 5 years to apply for the permit. 

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I have just had a quick scan of the WA itself and my reading is that irrespective of whether a person has a right of permanent residence because they have lived in the host state for more than 5 years before 31 December 2020, or a right to residence because they have been resident for less than 5 years, the deadline for applying for a new or exchange residence document is 6 months after the end of transition, hence the June deadline. (see Article 18 of the WA).  I may have missed something and/or there may be an override on one of the later Articles I did bother reading at this time but my interpretation appears in line with gov uk -  Living in Germany - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)   

 

I don't read any of the above as allowing a person to do nothing now and then come back in 4+ years and say, "look, I can prove I have the right, so please give me a document as I have exercised my right to be absent for less than 5 years".  That simply isn't supported by the WA in my view!

 

So, what is the downside to obtaining said document for a person who currently resides in an EU MS (Germany)?  That will then be cast in stone with no arguments.  If said person then seeks residence in another EU MS (NL), they may or may not be granted residence under their rules but the status in the old MS is cast in stone for at least 5 years' worth of absence.  If one is granted residence in NL then I have not (yet) read anything that says the DE document or right would be forfeit.  The DE right is a pre-31 December 2020 WA right, while the NL position is governed by the post 31 December rules, albeit by reference to the family member provisions relating to a person residence in NL before December.

 

Or am I missing the point? 

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My apologies, although I did say "caveat emptor, these are my notes...".

 

"Not applying for the Aufenthaltsdokument-GB right now does not matter, because, under the Withdrawal Agreement, I have the right to stay in DE IFF I apply before I've been in NL for 5 years."

My apologies. This was written some time ago in 2019, when I was weighing up pros and cons; at the time, the WA had not yet been ratified. 

I had mentally dismissed it, because if I hold an EU permanent residence permit, I can approximate FoM and move to another EU MS; however, the WA would defo not apply.  I'm currently weighing up how much this does/does not matter.

 

The "Council Directive 2003/109/EC of 25 November 2003 concerning the status of third-country nationals who are long-term residents" covers my rights as a 3rd-country national, and seem pretty comprehensive; overall, I can't see how the WA trumps this Directive, for holders of an EU permanent residence permit. 

Council Directive 2003/109/EC of 25 November 2003...

 

 

@GaryC All input great appreciated, if you have time.  I cannot afford to get this wrong, and I don't have much time to make a decision one way or another.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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