UK pension S1 form and Krankenkasse agreement

72 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, PandaMunich said:

 

Yes, please see the column "pflichtversichert" in here:

post-24869-14268488697433_thumb.jpg.f0a3

And I assume that includes foreign equivalents...

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Just checking, for those with German and non-German pensions who may need to "get it right", lol

 

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More on S1 form and Plegeversicherung.

 

I am a British national, resident in Germany since 2007. As a self-employed person, I paid several arms and legs for Privatschutz (Krankenversicherung + Pflegeversicherung), for years (no employer to help defray the cost).

 

When I became a UK State Pensioner (yay!), I was sent an S1 form which, I was told, relieves me from the Krankenschutz part of insurance. However, DKV has refused to recognise the S1 form; I am engaged in a battle with them.

 

Despite hours of searching on here, I have failed to find a definitive answer to the thorny question of Pflegeversicherung as it applies in my particular case.
Below are my questions and tentative answers which I have cobbled together from various places. I would be eternally grateful if someone who understands this minefield would confirm/contradict my conclusions.

 

Q1: Do I have to continue paying Pflegeversicherung forever?
A1: Yes. Pensioners have to pay it 100% out of their own pocket until the day they die.

 

Q2: What level of contribution must I make?
A1: The contribution is 3.05% of my gross income up to a maximum ceiling of € 4,837.50 a month.

 

Q3: My total annual taxable income is my UK State Pension, of £6,600 (gross).
A3: I must pay ca. € 200.00 per year.

 

Q4: When I am 75, my UK private pension kicks in, which will be ~£20,000 per year. That will take my total annual taxable income up to £ 26,600. Does this private pension get added in?

A4: Yes. I must pay ~ £ 811 per year.

 

 

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I thought pensioners only got UK NHS cover with S1 if they had not worked in Germany (with associated health insurance contributions here) or working in Germany as a UK taxpayer (posted worker, or cross border worker).  That is, people who retired here (like those who retired to Spain).  I would welcome the clarification.

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3 hours ago, MaineCoon said:

More on S1 form and Plegeversicherung.

 

I am a British national, resident in Germany since 2007. As a self-employed person, I paid several arms and legs for Privatschutz (Krankenversicherung + Pflegeversicherung), for years (no employer to help defray the cost).

 

When I became a UK State Pensioner (yay!), I was sent an S1 form which, I was told, relieves me from the Krankenschutz part of insurance. However, DKV has refused to recognise the S1 form; I am engaged in a battle with them.

 

Despite hours of searching on here, I have failed to find a definitive answer to the thorny question of Pflegeversicherung as it applies in my particular case.
Below are my questions and tentative answers which I have cobbled together from various places. I would be eternally grateful if someone who understands this minefield would confirm/contradict my conclusions.

 

Q1: Do I have to continue paying Pflegeversicherung forever?
A1: Yes. Pensioners have to pay it 100% out of their own pocket until the day they die.

 

Q2: What level of contribution must I make?
A1: The contribution is 3.05% of my gross income up to a maximum ceiling of € 4,837.50 a month.

 

Q3: My total annual taxable income is my UK State Pension, of £6,600 (gross).
A3: I must pay ca. € 200.00 per year.

 

Q4: When I am 75, my UK private pension kicks in, which will be ~£20,000 per year. That will take my total annual taxable income up to £ 26,600. Does this private pension get added in?

A4: Yes. I must pay ~ £ 811 per year.

 

 

Snowing again is nearly correct re the S1.
S1 is given to British pensioners when the state pension starts. However, if you also receive a pension from the country in which you are resident (DE) then that country (DE) is responsible for your health insurance and the S1 from Britain is not allowed. So, the question re the S1 is do you have a German pension as well as the British one, as I know some self employed do not have one? 

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3 hours ago, MaineCoon said:

More on S1 form and Plegeversicherung.

 

I am a British national, resident in Germany since 2007. As a self-employed person, I paid several arms and legs for Privatschutz (Krankenversicherung + Pflegeversicherung), for years (no employer to help defray the cost).

 

When I became a UK State Pensioner (yay!), I was sent an S1 form which, I was told, relieves me from the Krankenschutz part of insurance. However, DKV has refused to recognise the S1 form; I am engaged in a battle with them.

 

Despite hours of searching on here, I have failed to find a definitive answer to the thorny question of Pflegeversicherung as it applies in my particular case.
Below are my questions and tentative answers which I have cobbled together from various places. I would be eternally grateful if someone who understands this minefield would confirm/contradict my conclusions.

 

Q1: Do I have to continue paying Pflegeversicherung forever?
A1: Yes. Pensioners have to pay it 100% out of their own pocket until the day they die.

 

Q2: What level of contribution must I make?
A1: The contribution is 3.05% of my gross income up to a maximum ceiling of € 4,837.50 a month.

 

Q3: My total annual taxable income is my UK State Pension, of £6,600 (gross).
A3: I must pay ca. € 200.00 per year.

 

Q4: When I am 75, my UK private pension kicks in, which will be ~£20,000 per year. That will take my total annual taxable income up to £ 26,600. Does this private pension get added in?

A4: Yes. I must pay ~ £ 811 per year.

 

 

DKV are a private insurer. You have been privately insured. So you cannot expect them to accept your S1 form. That is for people who have been publicly insured and wish to continue that way as a pensioner. 
Yes, you have to pay 💰 into the Pflegeversicherung until you die.

 

This probably won’t help you😟 but :

https://www.gunnpartner.com/articles/getting-into-German-public-health-insurance

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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@SusieT: I do not receive a pension, or any other benefits, from DE.

 

@SnowingAgain: fwiw, I have been in Germany since 2007, self-employed as a software engineer, paying for private health + long-term care insurance.  I reached UK retirement age in 2016, at which point the DWP sent me the S1 form.  Ergo, I was working and resident in Germany at the time.

*However*, I was also a UK taxpayer, as I had UK income for which I filed annually with HMRC. I also paid Nat.Ins. contributions continuously from ~1972 through to 2016.

The above may or may not have had an influence on them sending me an S1 - I do not know the answer to this; perhaps @JohnG does.

 

@JohnG:  the DWP's letter which they sent me along with the S1 and the "your UK State Pension is now starting" said I must register the S1 with a statutory German health insurer, which I understood to mean a govt-approved company, ie not some fly-by-night operation. I am now wondering if the term "statutory' is UK-speak for 'public'?

 

Thank you for the link, but I don't much like what it has to say!

It is very much looking like we were given terrible advice from the 'independent' broker when we came. (The broker shortly afterwards became an Allianz broker).

 

I have been talking with SBK with a view to becoming a member, and (so far) they have not said anything about "because you were privately insured you are excluded". That may just be luck; but I'm definitely not going to rock the boat, in case I've somehow managed to slip under the radar.

I was also under the impression that I was eligible to be a mandatory member of the KVdR because I spent a min. of 90% of the second half of my work life in an EU public health insurance, ie. the NHS.  Is this incorrect?

 

On another note: Is it allowed to move from an EU country (say NL) where one is registered in the public health system with a UK S1, to Germany, and register in the public system here?

 

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21 minutes ago, MaineCoon said:

I have been talking with SBK with a view to becoming a member, and (so far) they have not said anything about "because you were privately insured you are excluded". That may just be luck; but I'm definitely not going to rock the boat, in case I've somehow managed to slip under the radar.

 

How are you currently insured? Trying to slip under the radar is a bad idea. Admission to the public health care system in Germany is laid out in SGB V and if a public health insurance company admits you by error, they can turn around and correct their mistake at a later date and you have a huge problem.

 

21 minutes ago, MaineCoon said:

I was also under the impression that I was eligible to be a mandatory member of the KVdR because I spent a min. of 90% of the second half of my work life in an EU public health insurance, ie. the NHS.  Is this incorrect?

 

If you were privately in insured in Germany since 2007, I don't see how you could meet the 90% requirement. 

 

21 minutes ago, MaineCoon said:

On another note: Is it allowed to move from an EU country (say NL) where one is registered in the public health system with a UK S1, to Germany, and register in the public system here?

 

 

A Brit resident in the Netherlands could remain in the Netherlands, but without FoM would not be entitled to take up residence in Germany. 

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1 minute ago, engelchen said:

If you were privately in insured in Germany since 2007, I don't see how you could meet the 90% requirement. 

But during this time I was also covered by the NHS. I don't see how/why they should be mutually exclusive.

 

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6 minutes ago, MaineCoon said:

But during this time I was also covered by the NHS. I don't see how/why they should be mutually exclusive.

 

 

Because you were resident in Germany. 

 

@PandaMunich could probably even tell you where you could find the rule in the treaty. 

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35 minutes ago, engelchen said:

Because you were resident in Germany. 

 

@PandaMunich could probably even tell you where you could find the rule in the treaty. 

 

Have a look at the EC Regulation (EC) No 883/2004: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A02004R0883-20140101

 

DETERMINATION OF THE LEGISLATION APPLICABLE

Article 11

General rules

1.  Persons to whom this Regulation applies shall be subject to the legislation of a single Member State only. Such legislation shall be determined in accordance with this Title.

2.  For the purposes of this Title, persons receiving cash benefits because or as a consequence of their activity as an employed or self-employed person shall be considered to be pursuing the said activity. This shall not apply to invalidity, old-age or survivors' pensions or to pensions in respect of accidents at work or occupational diseases or to sickness benefits in cash covering treatment for an unlimited period.

3.  Subject to Articles 12 to 16:

(a) a person pursuing an activity as an employed or self-employed person in a Member State shall be subject to the legislation of that Member State;

(b) a civil servant shall be subject to the legislation of the Member State to which the administration employing him/her is subject;

(c) a person receiving unemployment benefits in accordance with Article 65 under the legislation of the Member State of residence shall be subject to the legislation of that Member State;

(d) a person called up or recalled for service in the armed forces or for civilian service in a Member State shall be subject to the legislation of that Member State;

(e) any other person to whom subparagraphs (a) to (d) do not apply shall be subject to the legislation of the Member State of residence, without prejudice to other provisions of this Regulation guaranteeing him/her benefits under the legislation of one or more other Member States.

 

Article 13

Pursuit of activities in two or more Member States

2.  A person who normally pursues an activity as a self-employed person in two or more Member States shall be subject to:

(a) the legislation of the Member State of residence if he/she pursues a substantial part of his/her activity in that Member State;

or

(b) the legislation of the Member State in which the centre of interest of his/her activities is situated, if he/she does not reside in one of the Member States in which he/she pursues a substantial part of his/her activity.

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Wow! That was fast! Thanks @PandaMunich!  

 

From reading Articles 11 to 16 it seems that @MaineCoon should not have received an S1 to use in Germany and is not eligible for the KVdR.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. @MaineCoon I think you need the assistance of a professional. 

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41 minutes ago, engelchen said:

Yes, thanks @PandaMunich

@MaineCoon I think you need the assistance of a professional. 

 

I couldn't agree more!

Unfortunately (so far), those who I've contacted are either full up, don't know, or haven't responded. Beginning to think I've got cooties or some such :(

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2 minutes ago, MaineCoon said:

I couldn't agree more!

Unfortunately (so far), those who I've contacted are either full up, don't know, or haven't responded. Beginning to think I've got cooties or some such :(

 

It is somewhat complicated and for some reason not many people bother to even read the treaties although they are available in many languages. Furthermore,  I think it is not worth it for a professional to look up the info for just one client and many EU citizens don't realise that FoM brings not only rights, but also responsibilities. 

 

Panda is now a German Steuerberaterin (and if you read some of her old posts you can see that it started out as a hobby for her ), but I'm not sure if she is taking on any new clients. 

 

Alternatively you could try SOLVIT. 

 

 

 

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3.  Subject to Articles 12 to 16:

(a) a person pursuing an activity as an employed or self-employed person in a Member State shall be subject to the legislation of that Member State;

But I was self-employed in both the UK and DE, and filed taxes annually in each country.

Article 13, 2 (a): "substantial activity", my income from each country was pretty much the same.

Article 13, 2 (b): "centre of interest": I worked on contracts for the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory (USA) and Mozilla (USA). Note that all activity was Interwibble-based, ie. it could (and did) "take place" (I sat in front of my computer and typed)  in many different countries.

I also worked on my own UK-based interests, which required substantial amounts of time being spent in the UK (sometimes up to 4 months in a given year).

(sigh) I am finding all this extremely confusing.

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2 hours ago, MaineCoon said:

@SusieT: I do not receive a pension, or any other benefits, from DE.

 

@SnowingAgain: fwiw, I have been in Germany since 2007, self-employed as a software engineer, paying for private health + long-term care insurance.  I reached UK retirement age in 2016, at which point the DWP sent me the S1 form.  Ergo, I was working and resident in Germany at the time.

*However*, I was also a UK taxpayer, as I had UK income for which I filed annually with HMRC. I also paid Nat.Ins. contributions continuously from ~1972 through to 2016.

The above may or may not have had an influence on them sending me an S1 - I do not know the answer to this; perhaps @JohnG does.

 

@JohnG:  the DWP's letter which they sent me along with the S1 and the "your UK State Pension is now starting" said I must register the S1 with a statutory German health insurer, which I understood to mean a govt-approved company, ie not some fly-by-night operation. I am now wondering if the term "statutory' is UK-speak for 'public'?

 

Thank you for the link, but I don't much like what it has to say!

It is very much looking like we were given terrible advice from the 'independent' broker when we came. (The broker shortly afterwards became an Allianz broker).

 

I have been talking with SBK with a view to becoming a member, and (so far) they have not said anything about "because you were privately insured you are excluded". That may just be luck; but I'm definitely not going to rock the boat, in case I've somehow managed to slip under the radar.

I was also under the impression that I was eligible to be a mandatory member of the KVdR because I spent a min. of 90% of the second half of my work life in an EU public health insurance, ie. the NHS.  Is this incorrect?

 

On another note: Is it allowed to move from an EU country (say NL) where one is registered in the public health system with a UK S1, to Germany, and register in the public system here?

 

You can only register your S1 with a “ statutory “ ( German public insurance provider ) if you are already with a German public insurance provider. You are not🙁. You are privately insured and have been for quite a while. 
Unfortunately- due to the loss of Freedom of Movement now🙁- I cannot see how you could move to another European country outside Germany, get into that country’s public system for a minimum 12 months and then move back to Germany and into their public system. That boat has sailed. Maybe there is some loophole somewhere but I don’t know. You may need to contact a Versicherungsberater ( a special minority professional in German with powers of attorney and who is not allowed to sell insurance contracts but charges a fee). 
 

https://www.bvvb.de/

 

It was complicated enough BEFORE the end of Freedom of Movement. 

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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27 minutes ago, engelchen said:

It is somewhat complicated and for some reason not many people bother to even read the treaties although they are available in many languages. Furthermore,  I think it is not worth it for a professional to look up the info for just one client and many EU citizens don't realise that FoM brings not only rights, but also responsibilities. 

Believe me, I've read the Treaties, the addendums thereto, and the various documents that DE publishes until my head spins.  I think the issue is that some things are not explained clearly because "they are obvious".  For eg. the simple word "statutory', which I am beginning to think is at the root of my confusion.

 

SOLVIT: thanks for the link, but alas: "The United Kingdom left the SOLVIT network on 31 December 2020. As a result, SOLVIT can no longer assist UK nationals in European Union member countries or EU nationals in the UK."  I will look at the links they provide, tho.

 

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24 minutes ago, MaineCoon said:

But I was self-employed in both the UK and DE, and filed taxes annually in each country.

 

I think this is the root of your problems. It seems that you filed your taxes in both countries as if it was your primary residence. However, for social security purposes you needed to have established which Member State was your primary residence. As soon as you can determine where you primary residence for social security purposes was, you can determine the rest easily.

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On 26/04/2021, 17:09:19, snowingagain said:

I thought pensioners only got UK NHS cover with S1 if they had not worked in Germany (with associated health insurance contributions here) or working in Germany as a UK taxpayer (posted worker, or cross border worker).  That is, people who retired here (like those who retired to Spain).  I would welcome the clarification.

Some of the comments on this post made me nervous (got sent an S1 by mistake...), so I've been doing some research. Fell over this article, which may help clear things up as to why I got an S1 - looks like I was given it under the old rules.  Note: the legal retirement age is a different animal from the state pension age. 

https://www.expatassure.com/early-british-retirees-can-no-longer-access-free-health-care-when-settling-in-another-european-country/

 

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