UK pension S1 form and Krankenkasse agreement

72 posts in this topic

I recieve Austrian, German and UK state pensions. My UK pension is almost a full pension as I have paid 32 years contributions, however most of those contributions were Class II voluntary contributions. I pay the usual 7,3% health insurance and 3,3% care insurance to my Krankenkasse from both my UK and Austrian pensions and it is automatically deducted from my German pension. Now someone on a UK forum has suggested that my UK pension entitles me to free health insurance from the AOK. Does anyone know anything about this?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SteveYoung said:

I recieve Austrian, German and UK state pensions. My UK pension is almost a full pension as I have paid 32 years contributions, however most of those contributions were Class II voluntary contributions. I pay the usual 7,3% health insurance and 3,3% care insurance to my Krankenkasse from both my UK and Austrian pensions and it is automatically deducted from my German pension. Now someone on a UK forum has suggested that my UK pension entitles me to free health insurance from the AOK. Does anyone know anything about this?

There are posts about this- and check UK gov. Website for S1 form.( ( May have changed)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the information, I will apply for an S1 form and speak with my Krankenkasse. One thing I forgot to mention in my OP is that I am a dual British/German national since 2017, will that make a difference. If it's a case of the UK pension service paying my Beiträge somehow I don't suppose it will. But if the UK only pay for treatment, how will the Krankenkasse feel about that?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One other thing I have noticed is that it might be that the SI option is only available if one has NO German state pension.

 

I do receive a (small) German pension. I pay more in Krankenkasse Beiträge  on my UK, Austrian and German pensions, than I receive in German state pension.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the simple answer is that you cannot get a S1. 

 

You are a German national, resident in Germany and drawing a German pension, albeit a small one.  Germany is therefore the State responsible for your social security (as I understand it there is always only one State with that responsibility) and the UK will therefore not provide a S1. I don't think your dual nationality has any bearing on the issue, except that you are not in the realms of Brexit, the Withdrawal Agreement or the Free Trade Agreement.  

 

Planning your healthcare - NHS (www.nhs.uk)

If you receive both a pension from the country you now live in and your UK State Pension, you cannot get an S1 form. This is because the country you live in will be responsible for your healthcare.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gary, what you linked and quoted is unambiguous, but the piece below actually contradicts it!

 

So if I receive both a UK and a DE pension (35yr and 34yr contributions respectively, for example) and I move to Italy, according to the text in Gary's post is Germany that pays my healthcare, but according to the text below it is the UK. Note the text says "the country to which you paid contr...", it does not say "the EU country to which yo paid...", so the UK being outside the EU does not play a role in the wording here.

 

If you receive your UK State Pension as well as a pension from an EU member state, but are now living in a different EU state, the country to which you paid contributions toward your pension for the longest period becomes responsible for your healthcare.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, that's clear as mud.  I said it's not my area of knowledge...

 

Not sure if it will add anything here but I recently found the latest version of  Social Security at a glance 2020 (english), which covers pretty much everything social security-related...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gambatte said:

so the UK being outside the EU does not play a role in the wording here.

Not too sure about that, since that wording is based on the UK being treated like an EU member state in social security matters, and this will only be the case for the next 15 years (and you won't have reached pension age by then), see article SSC.70 (on page 1192 in the below Trade Agreement"):

  • Article SSC.70:
    Sunset clause 1. This Protocol shall cease to apply fifteen years after the entry into force of this Agreement.

 

You can find the whole the "Protocol on Social Security Coordination" starting with page 1162 in the "Trade and Cooperation Agreement between The European Union and the UK": https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:22020A1231(01)&from=EN

 

Also, long-term care is excluded (except in cases where people had already been resident in the state in which they want to retire on 31.12.2020): https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/en/topics/brexit.html

  • According to this protocol, the social insurance agencies can continue to apply EU law as if the United Kingdom were still a member state. What can no longer be continued under the Partnership Agreement, however, is the export of long-term care services for new cases, in other words, for situations starting from 1 January 2021 where no cross-border relationship had previously existed between an EU member state and the United Kingdom. 
55 minutes ago, GaryC said:

Well, that's clear as mud.

 

If gambatte were older (so that he could benefit from the 15 year period started on 01.01.2021), as long as he did not draw an Italian pension, he could move to Italy and get his public health insurance financed by the UK through an S1 form (if he had lived in the UK longer than in Germany - I don't agree with the "paid in" interpretation of the NHS, in the law it says "to whose legislation the person has been subject for the longest period of time", and this goes by residence in my opinion. So paying in voluntary NI contributions while already being resident in Germany would not help gambatte here, even if he were older).

But since he had not already been resident in Italy on 31.12.2020, he will not get long-term care financed through the UK, he will be on his own with that.

 

Source: "Protocol on Social Security Coordination" starting with page 1162 in the "Trade and Cooperation Agreement between The European Union and the UK": https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:22020A1231(01)&from=EN

 

Article SSC.22: No right to benefits in kind under the legislation of the State of residence

1. A person who:

(a) resides in a State;

(b) receives a pension or pensions under the legislation of one or more States; and

(c) is not entitled to benefits in kind under the legislation of the State of residence,

shall nevertheless receive such benefits for themselves and the members of their family, insofar as the pensioner would be entitled to them under the legislation of the State competent in respect of their pension or at least one of the States competent, if that person resided in that State. The benefits in kind shall be provided at the expense of the institution referred to in paragraph 2 by the institution of the place of residence, as though the person concerned were entitled to a pension and entitled to benefits in kind under the legislation of that State.

 

2. In the cases covered by paragraph 1, the cost of the benefits in kind shall be borne by the institution as determined in accordance with the following rules:

(a) where the pensioner is treated as if he or she were entitled to benefits in kind under the legislation of one State, the cost of those benefits shall be borne by the competent institution of that State;

(b) where the pensioner is treated as if he or she were entitled to benefits in kind under the legislation of two or more States, the cost of those benefits shall be borne by the competent institution of the State to whose legislation the person has been subject for the longest period of time;

(c) if the application of the rule in subparagraph (b) would result in several States being responsible for the cost of those benefits, the cost shall be borne by the competent institution of the State to whose legislation the pensioner was last subject.

 

Article SSC.23: Pensions under the legislation of one or more States other than the State of residence, where there is a right to benefits in kind in the latter State

Where a person receiving a pension or pensions under the legislation of one or more States resides in a State under whose legislation the right to receive benefits in kind is not subject to conditions of insurance, or conditions of activity as an employed or self-employed person, and that person does not receive a pension from the State of residence, the cost of benefits in kind provided to them and to members of their family shall be borne by the institution of one of the States competent in respect of their pensions determined in accordance with Article SSC.22(2) [No right to benefits in kind under the legislation of the State of residence], to the extent that the person and the members of their family would be entitled to such benefits if that person resided in that State.

 

*******************************************************************

 

These articles were basically from the EC regulation No 883/2004: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A02004R0883-20140101#tocId30

Article 23

Right to benefits in kind under the legislation of the Member State of residence

A person who receives a pension or pensions under the legislation of two or more Member States, of which one is the Member State of residence, and who is entitled to benefits in kind under the legislation of that Member State, shall, with the members of his/her family, receive such benefits in kind from and at the expense of the institution of the place of residence, as though he/she were a pensioner whose pension was payable solely under the legislation of that Member State.

Article 24

No right to benefits in kind under the legislation of the Member State of residence

1.  A person who receives a pension or pensions under the legislation of one or more Member States and who is not entitled to benefits in kind under the legislation of the Member State of residence shall nevertheless receive such benefits for himself/herself and the members of his/her family, in so far as he/she would be entitled thereto under the legislation of the Member State or of at least one of the Member States competent in respect of his/her pensions, if he/she resided in that Member State. The benefits in kind shall be provided at the expense of the institution referred to in paragraph 2 by the institution of the place of residence, as though the person concerned were entitled to a pension and benefits in kind under the legislation of that Member State.

2.  In the cases covered by paragraph 1, the cost of benefits in kind shall be borne by the institution as determined in accordance with the following rules:

(a) where the pensioner is entitled to benefits in kind under the legislation of a single Member State, the cost shall be borne by the competent institution of that Member State;

(b) where the pensioner is entitled to benefits in kind under the legislation of two or more Member States, the cost thereof shall be borne by the competent institution of the Member State to whose legislation the person has been subject for the longest period of time; should the application of this rule result in several institutions being responsible for the cost of benefits, the cost shall be borne by the institution applying the legislation to which the pensioner was last subject.

Article 25

Pensions under the legislation of one or more Member States other than the Member State of residence, where there is a right to benefits in kind in the latter Member State

Where the person receiving a pension or pensions under the legislation of one or more Member States resides in a Member State under whose legislation the right to receive benefits in kind is not subject to conditions of insurance, or of activity as an employed or self-employed person, and no pension is received from that Member State, the cost of benefits in kind provided to him/her and to members of his/her family shall be borne by the institution of one of the Member States competent in respect of his/her pensions determined in accordance with Article 24(2), to the extent that the pensioner and the members of his/her family would be entitled to such benefits if they resided in that Member State.

 

 

 
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a minefield!  

 

I agree with PandaMunich on the question of "paid in". A person resident in Germany but paying UK voluntary NIC, would nevertheless be subject to the German legislation. That would suggest that the longer period would be based on residence and contributions arising therefrom, not on voluntary amounts paid by a non-resident to another countries system.

 

I guess that for most folk on here, they will either be subject to the EU rules PandaMunich quotes forever because they come within the WA, or will arrive in Germany or the UK after 31 December 2020 and so will be covered by the new protocol also quoted above for the next 15 years and then, well, who knows...

 

That leaves people who leave Germany or the UK (for Italy above) after 31 December, in which case the new rules apply, so again, certainty limited to 15 years. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recently discovered the set of training material for DRV staff, one of which deals with the EU rules for aggregation and pro rata calculations.   Homepage - Über- und zwischenstaatliches Recht, Auslandsrenten - Deutsche Rentenversicherung (deutsche-rentenversicherung.de)

 

Reading it on this wet afternoon, I see it has details about Krankenversicherung und Pflegeversicherung der Rentner in section 10 from page 35 for anyone sad enough to plough through it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I rang the NHS Overseas Healthcare Services (Telephone: +44 (0)191 218 1999) and when I eventually got to talk to a human she told me that if I drew a German pension and lived in Germany I wasn't entitled to an S1 form. I asked about what would happen if I refused my German pension (I'd still be better off if I didn't have to pay insurance from my UK and Austrian pensions). She left me on hold to check this out but when she returned she just restated that as a German in Germany I would need to check with the German authorities.

 

I guess for me the issue is closed: I am not entitled to S1 support because I have a German pension.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, SteveYoung said:

I am not entitled to S1 support because I have a German pension.

Is that a problem? German pensions also come with healthcare (including long-term care), after all.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jeba said:

German pensions also come with healthcare

 

As in 'included free with' ? If so, brilliant, and no problem, I imagine. 

 

I don't think that's how it is, though. I think it maybe gives you guaranteed entry into a KK for which you have to pay a % of your income including pensions. 

 

The form S1 is a 'freeby' for entitled UK people, although of course it is paid by tax and contributions - we don't see the money coming out for that purpose precisely.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, kiplette said:

 

As in 'included free with' ? If so, brilliant, and no problem, I imagine. 

 

I don't think that's how it is, though. I think it maybe gives you guaranteed entry into a KK for which you have to pay a % of your income including pensions. 

 

The form S1 is a 'freeby' for entitled UK people, although of course it is paid by tax and contributions - we don't see the money coming out for that purpose precisely.

 

A German public pension usually comes with obligatory membership in the "Krankenversicherung der Rentner", whether you want it or not (not sure whether there are exceptions for e.g. Beamte or pensioners who had been voluntarily or privately insured while still a member of the workforce). It will be deducted from your pension payout unless you can prove you live outside the EU or in an EU member state that also pays you a pension (in which case that state will provide health cover).The S1 form isn´t for UK people only, it´s proof (issued by your public healthcare cover provider) that you have public health cover from the state which pays your pension and it opens the door into the public health system of another member state. You may need it e.g. in Cyprus in order to remain exempt from "healthcare tax", no matter whether or not you join the public healthcare system. Speaking from experience here (and I´m not from the UK).

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, jeba said:

The S1 form isn´t for UK people only, it´s proof (issued by your public healthcare cover provider) that you have public health cover from the state which pays your pension and it opens the door into the public health system of another member state.

 

Yes, and for UK people it is seen as 'free', and that's the thing for Steve - if he was entitled to an S1 from the UK, he wouldn't have to pay anything additional for healthcare. 

If because of his German pension he is in a German KK, he will have to pay significant costs, which is why 

 

22 hours ago, jeba said:

Is that a problem?

 

it may very well be a problem.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He may still be entitled to a S1 form. However, it won´t help him as long as he´s residing in Germany. At least that´s my understanding. I´m no expert though.

 

19 minutes ago, kiplette said:

If because of his German pension he is in a German KK, he will have to pay significant costs,

If he´s a member of the Krankenversicherung der Rentner the contribution will "only" be 7.x % (not the usual 15,x % for members of the workforce) of his pension, not his total income. Still more than zero but not as bad as you might think at first glance. It will be withheld from his payout so he won´t even come to see it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the income taken into account for KK costs when you are "pflichtversichert"  in the Krankenversicherung der Rentner" is wider than just your German pension - foreign pensions, occupational pensions and the like are also included aren't they?

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, GaryC said:

I thought the income taken into account for KK costs when you are "pflichtversichert"  in the Krankenversicherung der Rentner" is wider than just your German pension - foreign pensions, occupational pensions and the like are also included aren't they?

 

Yes, please see the column "pflichtversichert" in here:

post-24869-14268488697433_thumb.jpg.f0a3

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now