Mistakenly missed few items in cart to pay. Kaufland filed police complaint.

80 posts in this topic

Sometimes honestly is the best thing and sometimes it is not. I personally would not admit as you would make yourself very easy to prosecute. Watch out what you say and do not provide any information that is not required. Unless you have legal insurance, I do not see a reason to call a lawyer. If it’s a first time, she will probably pay a fine less than what a lawyer would charge her. 

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On 3/15/2021, 7:43:19, hellotoy said:

Now, I have received the letter from the police (still waiting for the letter from Kaufland). I am asked to provide information as shown in the below image:
https://ibb.co/zbCC9CG

 

My answers/comment about the same:

 

Employed: (I am not employed after I moved to Germany)
At the time of crime: No. Currently: No

 

Regular occupation: (I was software developer in India. I guess, that is not relevant here.)
At the time of crime: No. Currently: No

 

Position in the job: Not Applicable / Blank

 

Employer: Not Applicable / Blank

 

Economic conditions: (This is optional field. I can mention my husband’s income here. However, I am not sure if I should. He earns around ~100K EURO per year which I guess is above average salary. I am not sure if this will have negative impact and attract higher fine or positive impact as perceived as possible mistake since no major financial motivation. Please advise.)

 

The offense of which I am accused: (There are two options. First is ‘I admit’. I don’t know what the second option is. Google translate says ‘I insist’ which doesn’t make sense. Is it ‘I deny’? I want to admit the mistake but not the crime of shoplifting. I also do not want to deny and end up in more proceedings, court hearing etc. Please advise which option I should select. What if I keep it blank?)

 

Information on the matter (use supplementary sheet if necessary): (I need to answer this in German. I plan to use Google translate and write down the details pretty much as mentioned in my first post. Please advise what I should mention. Any help in forming the reply in German. I am ready to pay the fine and get over with it. Should I suggest this in my reply?)

Good grief! Just see a lawyer already!

Use Google for a legal statement? The mind boggles. :( 

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You received a letter from the police. This means this is considered a criminal matter. You do not want any criminal matter listed against you in Germany, especially if you at some point in the future wish to apply for citizenship/residency etc.

 

Go an see a lawyer who will give you an initial consultation and discuss the implications.

Your case is simple, but the laws and practice vary country by country. Only a German lawyer can give you a definitive answer.

However, in most countries, shoplifting is classed as theft. Theft involves two elements, the act and the intent. Both must be established.

If you admit to shoplifting, you are admitting to both elements.

 

In your case, I strong suspect the lawyer will tell you not to admit to the case.

Then the shop can take you to the civil court for the cost of the lost items, which in your case was zero, so quite unlikely.

The police can take you to the criminal court for theft. For this, they have have to consider if there is a case that will stand before a judge.

For a criminal case, they need to prove both elements. They judge will then take into account the circumstances, and previous convictions for the like, and decide if any punishment is due.

As you don't speak German, a court will appoint a translator for you.

 

In both cases, a letter from the lawyer stating the facts and offering to settle out of court in exchange for the shop dropping any criminal case is the most likely outcome. Likely outcome is that you will pay some legal fees and some compensation to the shop, agree not to shop there. But for this, you should have a lawyer organize it. Admiting shoplifting may lead to a criminal record, which you do not want.

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I´d not check either of those boxes and write something along the lines "I admit having taken those items without paying, but it had happened unintentionally". And as a first offender I wouldn´t waste money on a lawyer. I wouldn´t be a first offender though as I stole a package of chewing gums from Aldi as a dare when I was 13 or so (but I confessed it and in exchange for some prayers the priest forgave me, so I should be fine).

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11 hours ago, katheliz said:

Good grief! Just see a lawyer already!

Use Google for a legal statement? The mind boggles. :( 

 

Yes Yes yes

 

8 hours ago, scook17 said:

Go an see a lawyer who will give you an initial consultation and discuss the implications.

Only a German lawyer can give you a definitive answer.

The police can take you to the criminal court for theft.
you should have a lawyer

 

Yes Yes Yes

 

 

11 hours ago, TampaFL said:

I personally would not admit as you would make yourself very easy to prosecute.

 

Yes Yes Yes   (Although I bet unfortunate statements were already made to the police that fateful day at Kaufland.  Nevertheless, no need to repeat any admission.)

 

11 hours ago, TampaFL said:

Unless you have legal insurance, I do not see a reason to call a lawyer. If it’s a first time, she will probably pay a fine less than what a lawyer would charge her. 

 

No. No. No.  This is not just an economic choice.  OP has wound up in a bad spot.  Best practice is to use all available tools to work toward best possible outcome.  Get professional legal assistance.

 

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5 hours ago, jeba said:

I´d not check either of those boxes and write something along the lines "I admit having taken those items without paying, but it had happened unintentionally". And as a first offender I wouldn´t waste money on a lawyer. I wouldn´t be a first offender though as I stole a package of chewing gums from Aldi as a dare when I was 13 or so (but I confessed it and in exchange for some prayers the priest forgave me, so I should be fine).

 

Man, sometimes you really have no clue.   You are a German, you won't be kicked out of Germany.   We are talking about a foreigner with a most probably limited visa in Germany, the risk of losing the residence permit next time she has to extend it is totally worth of checking with a lawyer.      Yes, most probably the case will be dismissed, still, take all precautions if you can afford it.

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4 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

Man, sometimes you really have no clue.   You are a German, you won't be kicked out of Germany.   We are talking about a foreigner with a most probably limited visa in Germany, the risk of losing the residence permit next time she has to extend it is totally worth of checking with a lawyer.      Yes, most probably the case will be dismissed, still, take all precautions if you can afford it.

Provided it´s a first offense in a worst case scenario there will a Strafbefehl. The risk that she´ll be kicked out for that is about as big as the risk of being hit by a meteorite.

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7 minutes ago, jeba said:

Provided it´s a first offense in a worst case scenario there will a Strafbefehl. The risk that she´ll be kicked out for that is about as big as the risk of being hit by a meteorite.

 

And if the fine is 30 days (Tagessätzen) or more her limited permit is cancelled.

 

And that's that the first potential headache.

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

And if the fine is 30 days (Tagessätzen) or more her limited permit is cancelled.

 

And that's that the first potential headache.

I thought your residence permit can only be at risk once you have "earned" an entry into your police clearance certificate (which you´ll only get for fines exceeding 90 daily rates)? Where did you get the 30 day limit from? If that´s correct it would change my opinion even though I doubt that the fine would be as high as 30 day rates in her case. I know of a woman who as a first offender deliberately stole a piece of clothing at C&A and she received quite a low fine (many years ago though and I don´t remember how many day rates) but didn´t have to appear in court.

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22 minutes ago, jeba said:

I thought your residence permit can only be at risk once you have "earned" an entry into your police clearance certificate (which you´ll only get for fines exceeding 90 daily rates)? Where did you get the 30 day limit from? If that´s correct it would change my opinion even though I doubt that the fine would be as high as 30 day rates in her case. I know of a woman who as a first offender deliberately stole a piece of clothing at C&A and she received quite a low fine (many years ago though and I don´t remember how many day rates) but didn´t have to appear in court.

 

Here you go, 30 or more fine days can potentially end in a residence permit cancelled (discretionary to the AB):

 

https://www.frag-einen-anwalt.de/Urteil-wegen-Ladendiebstahl,-was-passiert-mit-Aufenthaltserlaubnis--f169599.html

 

I will wait here for your apologies.  I will wait sitting down,  I don't get tired of waiting ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S., Notice Ive been saying from the beginning I don't think it will happen.  But if you have the financial means then MAKE SURE you make everything as possible to stop it from happening.

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5 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

Here you go, 30 or more fine days can potentially end in a residence permit cancelled (discretionary to the AB):

 

https://www.frag-einen-anwalt.de/Urteil-wegen-Ladendiebstahl,-was-passiert-mit-Aufenthaltserlaubnis--f169599.html

 

I will wait here for your apologies.  I will wait sitting down,  I don't get tired of waiting ...

Ok, you made me change my mind. And to make you feel better I apologise for having based my opinion on wrongly assumed facts. Given that there may be a risk worth consulting a lawyer I agree that it would be better to do so. Even if the risk is minimal (see $ 55 Aufenthaltsgesetz).

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5 hours ago, jeba said:

Ok, you made me change my mind. And to make you feel better I apologise for having based my opinion on wrongly assumed facts. Given that there may be a risk worth consulting a lawyer I agree that it would be better to do so. Even if the risk is minimal (see $ 55 Aufenthaltsgesetz).

TT user apologizes for being mistaken - world ends tomorrow..  best get all those St. Patrick's day beer down now, you've got just under two hours to live.

 

@Jeba - this joke is not pointed at you so lease don't take it personally. TT would be a much better place if people admitted their mistakes like adults (as you did).

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13 minutes ago, cb6dba said:

 best get all those St. Patrick's day beer down now, you've got just under two hours to live.

 

I am getting as many of them down my neck as possible as its my daughters B-day today and I wasnt permitted to talk to her!!! *

 

* will update the "Mind Games thread " soon

 

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On 17/3/2021 0:20:58, scook17 said:

You received a letter from the police. This means this is considered a criminal matter. You do not want any criminal matter listed against you in Germany, especially if you at some point in the future wish to apply for citizenship/residency etc.

 

Go an see a lawyer who will give you an initial consultation and discuss the implications.

Your case is simple, but the laws and practice vary country by country. Only a German lawyer can give you a definitive answer.

However, in most countries, shoplifting is classed as theft. Theft involves two elements, the act and the intent. Both must be established.

If you admit to shoplifting, you are admitting to both elements.

 

In your case, I strong suspect the lawyer will tell you not to admit to the case.

Then the shop can take you to the civil court for the cost of the lost items, which in your case was zero, so quite unlikely.

The police can take you to the criminal court for theft. For this, they have have to consider if there is a case that will stand before a judge.

For a criminal case, they need to prove both elements. They judge will then take into account the circumstances, and previous convictions for the like, and decide if any punishment is due.

As you don't speak German, a court will appoint a translator for you.

 

In both cases, a letter from the lawyer stating the facts and offering to settle out of court in exchange for the shop dropping any criminal case is the most likely outcome. Likely outcome is that you will pay some legal fees and some compensation to the shop, agree not to shop there. But for this, you should have a lawyer organize it. Admiting shoplifting may lead to a criminal record, which you do not want.


THIS. As immigrants we have a big disadvantage when it comes to the law of the host country. Our residency permits are on the line. Get a lawyer. Good luck! :) 
 

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On 07/03/2021, 16:32:54, catjones said:

you must be a german.

the OP said they made a mistake.  accusing someone of 'stealing' is typical of a superiority complex.

 

Yeah, the eagerness to judge, the humorless tone, the inability to consider another viewpoint or give a fellow human the benefit of the doubt... does seem rather Teutonic, doesn't it? Though there's always the possibility that someone displaying those symptoms is a Yank or Bit who has gone "native" (or emigrated in the first place because such cultural tendencies lured them here like a beacon). As the years go by some sort of Forum Mechanism of virtual natural selection seems to have turned many of the "regulars" here into exactly that kind of proposition, in fact. Curious.

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37 minutes ago, Kid-Est-Veritas said:

 

the eagerness to judge, the humorless tone, the inability to consider another viewpoint or give a fellow human the benefit of the doubt... does seem rather Teutonic, doesn't it?

Spoken like a true Teuton!

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On 17.9.2021, 10:28:17, Kid-Est-Veritas said:

Witless gainsaying.

My wit or lack thereof is of course entirely subjective, but I am curious to know how I was gainsaying you?

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