Widow's/widower's DRV pension - income adjustment

[GaryC 366]

Calling all DRV Pension experts on here.  I have done a a few TT searches and can't find what I am looking for, so apologies if it has been covered already.

 

Not that either of us is planning on boosting the local funeral director's profits any time soon but I am trying to get my head around the "Einkommensanrechnung" rules for widow(er)'s pension for the German state scheme.

 

Our position:

• married before 2002 and both born before 1962, so the "altes Recht" applies - 60% of deceased's pension and different rules for which income gets taking into the "Einkommensanrechnung" calculation
• we each have (or will hopefully have before the evil day) DRV pension, UK state pension, employment-related pension (Betriebsrente I think in these terms - final salary contributory pension scheme at work), investment income including rental income

 

I have looked at §18a SGB IV and understand that for those who fall under the new/current rules all of the above would be included in the calculation and that on that basis no widow(er)'s pension would fall out at the bottom of the spreadsheet.  But we are "protected" and the old rules apply which means a survivor's pension will be due. I won't be massive as the "living" pensions are only about 400€ pm having worked for just short of a decade in Germany but at the advert says, "Every little helps".

 

I cannot find the statutory references but from reading 99% of the Internet I think that the only income from our various types that falls to be taken into account under the "altes Recht" is the surviving spouse's DRV pension and, on the basis that the UK state pension at least appears to be "vergleichbare ausländische Einkommen" with the DRV pension, the UK state pension.  The investment income, rental income and the final salary pensions do not feature.  Is this how the old rules work?

 

If I am wrong and the work pensions do need to be included, am I right in thinking that the widow(er)'s pension from those sources would be excluded in the same way a DRV widow(er)'s pension is excluded?  

 

Also, I assume the same 14% would be deducted from the UK state pension in the calculations as is deducted from the DRV pension? 

 

Thanks in advance...

 

As I can still edit this, I'll add some more thinking as I think I have now tracked down the legislation for the "altes Recht" in §114 SGB IV.

 

I think §18a is over-ridden (at least in part) and that the final salary pension and investment income-rental do not feature (good news). The DRV pension needs to be included of course but I am not clear on a couple of points:

• is the amount by which the DRV pension is reduced 25% instead of 14%? 
  • (4) Wenn der versicherte Ehegatte vor dem 1. Januar 2002 verstorben ist oder die Ehe vor diesem Tag geschlossen wurde und mindestens ein Ehegatte vor dem 2. Januar 1962 geboren ist, ist das monatliche Einkommen zu kürzen

                    1. bei Leistungen nach § 18a Absatz 3 Satz 1 Nummer 2, die nach den besonderen Vorschriften für die knappschaftliche Rentenversicherung berechnet sind, um 25 vom Hundert,

 

• is §18a over-ridden completely, other than the references to it in §114, e.g. does one include "vergleichbare ausländische Einkommen" in §18a Abs 1 Satz 3 or does that sentence have no bearing? (I am rooting for the latter but fear the answer will be the former...)

 

[GaryC 366]

I know I am answering my own question but in the absence of any takers I have been reading more in the insomniacs' manual, aka, SGB4.  I have also been googling a little more and find that on the various legal advice websites the opinion on whether foreign income in, or is not, included are split 50/50.  Hmm, clear as mud then.  DRV "Studium" material is also silent on the issue, while going into great detail on every type of domestic income. 

 

Anyway, from my reading of §18a and §114 SGB4, I think foreign income is not to be included (as opposed to specifically being excluded).

 

§114  states

"(1) Wenn der versicherte Ehegatte vor dem 1. Januar 2002 verstorben ist oder die Ehe vor diesem Tag geschlossen wurde und mindestens ein Ehegatte vor dem 2. Januar 1962 geboren ist, sind bei Renten wegen Todes als Einkommen zu berücksichtigen:

1.Erwerbseinkommen,

2.Leistungen, die auf Grund oder in entsprechender Anwendung öffentlich-rechtlicher Vorschriften erbracht werden, um Erwerbseinkommen zu ersetzen (Erwerbsersatzeinkommen), mit Ausnahme von Zusatzleistungen."

 

So, the only income to include is that described in 1. and 2. - the provision is silent on foreign equivalents.

 

§18a (1) sets out the extended types of income that are included for persons not covered by the old rules in §114, i.e. the post 2002 new rules, and ends with, "Die Sätze 1 und 2 gelten auch für vergleichbare ausländische Einkommen". My reading of this, based on a career of developing and/or applying UK tax law, is that this reference to sentences 1 and 2 is to those sentences in the same Paragraph, i.e. not to similarly numbers sentences in some other, unnamed section or paragraph.  Of course, German statutory construction may differ.

 

So, my reading of that is that the 2002 extension to the types of income that are used to calculate the reduction in the widow(er)'s pensions, also extended the new rules to similar foreign income.  But, those who still come under the old rules by virtue of §114 include only domestic income listed in 114(1). 

 

Do the lawyers on here think that is an appropriate construction of the relevant provisions?

[GaryC 366]

Ok, so I've clearly not got anything better to do and will be quiet after this contribution. 

 

Just in case anyone else ever searches on this subject, and as it took me a long time to track this down, reading this link as a starting point may help -  Literatursystem - §§ 101 - 125 - § 114 SGB IV: Einkommen beim Zusammentreffen mit Renten wegen Todes - Übergangsvorschriften (deutsche-rentenversicherung.de) - it is a really useful resource setting out how DRV interprets and expects others to interpret its legislation.  The link points at §114 but the whole of this site is "great" bedtime reading, lol...

 

What all of that says is that while the rules in §114 determine the much more limited types of income that feed into the Einkommensanrechnung for those protected by the "altes Recht", the rule in §18a Abs 1 Satz 3 about " vergleichbare ausländische Einkommen" in still applies.  While I still don't read the sections in that way with my UK head on, that's how it's applied, so accept and move on... The surviving spouse will need to inform DRV of their relevant UK income when claiming any widow(er)'s pension.

 

This page (there is one for each country) is very helpful  Literatursystem - § 18a - § 18a SGB IV Vereinigtes Königreich: Art des zu berücksichtigenden Einkommens (deutsche-rentenversicherung.de) as it sets out how foreign income is viewed in terms of its being, or not being, "vergleichbar".  UK Civil Service pensions and Local Authority Pension Scheme pensions are treated (correctly in my view) as Betriebsrenten. 

 

So, my summary is that: the UK State Pension will be included in the Einkommensanrechnung and subject to a 14% reduction (as for the DRV pension); but our other types of income (Work pension, investment income and rental income) will not - but only because we are both old and long-suffering, sorry, married since before 2002.

 

The end.  

[HH_Sailor 3,547]

Thanks for your dedication!

 

I'll bookmark this for the wife to give to the accountant should I pop my clogs before her. 

We too are pre 1962 / 2002.

[GaryC 366]

Pretty much why I decided to do it really - it all gets a bit morbid, not to mention complicated, once you are of pension age, ewe

 

[HH_Sailor 3,547]

Thinking about it all now in the sunny years definitely beats trying to track it all down after a car crash. Or after

dementia sets in. 

 

Just will she know where I hid it when the time comes?

😉

 

Hint:

In the Vollmacht / Patientenverfügung folder...

[john g. 37,695]

We’ve got a ( dated )  Vollmacht/ Patientenverfuegung folder, HH!

( Just wondering where it is😟😀).

We think.. in the kitchen!

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.

[GaryC 366]

You'll want a link to the forms too in that case  Homepage - Formularpaket Witwenrente und Witwerrente einschließlich Krankenversicherung der Rentner (KVdR) - Deutsche Rentenversicherung (deutsche-rentenversicherung.de).  Main one is only 16 pages long.  I am tempted to fill one out pro forma to gives those with less German than I a fighting chance...

 

 

 

[GaryC 366]

Oh, the joys of getting old...

 

[john g. 37,695]

Never give up, Gary!

Have a song🙏🏻

 

https://youtu.be/zqfFrCUrEbY

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.

[GaryC 366]

I was just about to say, "Of course not" but then looked at the forms - OMG, are they serious?  At a time of bereavement.  Definitely going to pre-complete what I think are the relevant forms for us.  Mindboggling - and that for someone who speaks the lingo...  

[GaryC 366]

On 01/02/2021, 19:47:05, GaryC said:

I was just about to say, "Of course not" but then looked at the forms - OMG, are they serious?  At a time of bereavement.  Definitely going to pre-complete what I think are the relevant forms for us.  Mindboggling - and that for someone who speaks the lingo...  

So, I took the plunge and have done the forms.  Looks like I/we need only R0500 (basic claim form) and R0660 (Income to be taken into account) and the guidance in R0501. 

 

They are interactive PDFs, which is good and once you properly read the detail, e.g. where the questions are "if you aren't in this situation, or this one, then fill out these parts", i.e. the new rules apply, as opposed to, "if the old rules apply because you married pre-2002 and were born before 1962 etc, do not fill out these parts", it wasn't that difficult - a real case of RTFQ or Read the Question! 

 

The one point that was a tad challenging is the request for the DAY you moved to Germany from abroad - now that one really was on the tip of my tongue after more than 40 years!

 

Anyway, proforma forms duly completed (so far as possible) for each of us and stored away for that rainy day, together with a document with a few points to clarify and questions left to complete, when the evil day arrives.  

[HEM 11,083]

2 hours ago, GaryC said:

The one point that was a tad challenging is the request for the DAY you moved to Germany from abroad - now that one really was on the tip of my tongue after more than 40 years! 

 

In my case I know the month & year (November 1982) but no clue as to the day.  To make matters complicated the first 4 years I was seconded from a UK university, financed by UK govt funds (scientific research).

[GaryC 366]

I looked at my Versicherungsverlauf which has the day from which I/we were paying Pflichtbeiträge.  I am also wondering whether there is a date on the old Aufenthaltserlaubnis or other papers I have tucked away as someone told me way-back-when to never destroy them.  Not sure if that is old pension papers or from the KK.  Will dig them out at some point.

 

On the other hand, I don't really see why the day really matters because all they are doing is tying husband and wife records together to then convert (in most cases unless the deceased died before pension age) an existing pension into a widow(er) pension. The date the each spouse arrived in Germany seems irrelevant but heyho.  Maybe I have mis-read the form R0500 Q2 and Q3...

[GaryC 366]

An update on all of this. 

 

First, the R0500 and R0660 have been updated (June 2021), so if you have pre-completed them you may need to start again!  It seems the only change is one of formatting to make them clearer but also about 3 pages longer.  Still didn't take too long to re-pre-complete the new version.

 

The other thing I read today is that if you are a post-2002 marriage/post-1962 baby, then you do not need to include any widow(er)'s pension(s) the survivor gets from the deceased's occupational pensions.  Apparently, this is because such income does not arise from the economic activity of the survivor in the way their own pension does but from the economic activity of the deceased. It's apparently all about the precise wording of  §97 SGB VI. 

 

Doesn't impact us but for those it would impact, certainly one to look into in detail and/or discuss with the professionals...

[jeba 4,349]

On 1.2.2021, 18:16:05, GaryC said:

our other types of income (Work pension, investment income and rental income) will not - but only because we are both old and long-suffering, sorry, married since before 2002.

That alone isn´t good enough. You have to have been married to each other