Posted 16 Nov 2020 Hi all, I have a case a bit more peculiar, and I was wondering if someone had something similar and can advise. Long story short: Some years ago, I rented an apt in RLP from an old lady (let's call her Mrs M). Since she was very old, her kids were taking care of the property and I was in touch with them for any issues that might occur. Old lady died in Mar 2018, but nobody told me, I found out only 6 months later, in Sep 2018, when my rent was returned by my bank with "closed account" comment. I contacted the daughter (let's call her Mrs I) and we agreed I will pay the money from that moment into her daughter (let's call her Ms S) account (so the niece of the ex-landlord, who was dead now). So I started to do so. In Oct 2019, I moved out, leaving with a clean handover document for the apt, with everything in good order. But some months later, I still did not get my deposit back. After some really tiring hassle (official request with tracking, then involving of a lawyer, then letter from lawyer, reaching to court), I got the Mainz Court decision that I should get back my deposit, together with my lawyer fees and some money that my lawyer knew I will be entitled to. Till here, all quite clean, but now it starts the complicated part. The bailiff was sent to the house of Mrs I to execute the Court Order, but Mrs I declared under vow that she does not have any belongings. When asked about the details of this declaration and why the house I used to live in is not in her belongings, the bailiff replied officially that all was done in proper order and that both offsprings of Mrs M, the dead lady, declined the inheritance of that house (attached you may see the bailiff's reply). Currently my lawyer is totally silent, and I see he does not know how to tackle this case. What is your advise? Legally, from where shall I claim my deposit in this case? Because it seems my Court decision is good to be thrown on the window... Since starting Sep 2018 till moment of my movement, in Oct 2019, the rent was sent to Mrs S account, but she is a minor (and daughter of daugther of the ex-landlord). Shall I ask to my lawyer to make connection between old lady and the money sent in her niece's account? Shall I ask my lawyer to ask from Mrs I all the money paid to Ms S (her minor daughter) starting Sep 2018, as benefits to which not her or her daughter were entitled to? I really don;t know which are my options in this case. Many thanks in advance for any advice, since it seems more complicated than I ever believed it could be... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Nov 2020 1 hour ago, tiana666 said: Old lady died in Mar 2018, but nobody told me, I found out only 6 months later, in Sep 2018, when my rent was returned by my bank with "closed account" comment. I contacted the daughter (let's call her Mrs I) and we agreed I will pay the money from that moment into her daughter (let's call her Ms S) account (so the niece of the ex-landlord, who was dead now). I understand this to be the granddaughter, not the niece. It's fishy that the daughter wanted the rent paid into the account of a minor. Is the granddaughter still a minor now? The problem is you acted upon the word of the daughter. What the daughter told you to do may not have been the correct procedure. If they weren't accepting the flat as inheritance, how is that they were accepting the rent on it - they weren't even the legal owners and they didn't become the legal owners later either. That rent has to be paid back to the legal owner. The legal owner could even pursue you for that rent as it was paid to a third party who should not have ever got their hands on it. There should have been an account set up by the person handling the elderly lady's estate for the money to be paid into whilst the legal owner(s) was (were) established. Who became the legal owner of the property? If it was the granddaughter alone, why did the lawyer not find this out before going after the mother? Or are there other joint owners? The new owner should have got access to the deposit account or at the very least the person sorting out the estate. That person should have access to your money - as presumably the money is still in the special deposit account somewhere. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Nov 2020 6 minutes ago, lunaCH said: It's fishy that the daughter wanted the rent paid into the account of a minor. Is the granddaughter still a minor now? Who said the granddaughter is a Minor? Nothing has been mentioned about age..I was 28 when my grandma passed away... 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Nov 2020 4 minutes ago, SpiderPig said: Who said the granddaughter is a Minor? Nothing has been mentioned about age..I was 28 when my grandma passed away... It is stated in the OP's post 'minor daughter', so I am assuming the granddaughter was (and possibly still is) a minor. How old you were at the time of your grandmother's passing is totally irrelevant to the case. I'm much older than 28 and I still have one grandparent. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Nov 2020 Not sure whether a third party (in this case the granddaughter) can be pursued for any wrongdoing for having money stuffed into her account which she wasn't entitled to! If she was minor at the time (up to the very end of the lease agreement with that money going in), she'll probably be off the hook An adult on the other hand might have a legal obligation to inform the bank. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Nov 2020 If your lawyer is perplexed by this case, I doubt you will get much relevant advice from some expats. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Nov 2020 1 hour ago, tiana666 said: The bailiff was sent to the house of Mrs I to execute the Court Order, but Mrs I declared under vow that she does not have any belongings. When asked about the details of this declaration and why the house I used to live in is not in her belongings, the bailiff replied officially that all was done in proper order and that both offsprings of Mrs M, the dead lady, declined the inheritance of that house (attached you may see the bailiff's reply). In my opinion, whoever own the house should pay you the kaution. You need to find who own the house. At least the rent you paid to the grandkids need to be paid to the proper owner... Things can get messy.. Hope you have proof that the money was paid by bank transfer. Good luck. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Nov 2020 10 minutes ago, vivanco said: In my opinion, whoever own the house should pay you the kaution. You need to find who own the house. At least the rent you paid to the grandkids need to be paid to the proper owner... Things can get messy.. Hope you have proof that the money was paid by bank transfer. Good luck. It sounds the owner died with so much debt descendents refused to inherit and house was sold to cover some of the costs. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 16 Nov 2020 1 hour ago, snowingagain said: If your lawyer is perplexed by this case, I doubt you will get much relevant advice from some expats. The lawyer though, before starting up a payment recovery procedure, should have tried to find out if the daughter of the deceased was actually the new owner. It would have saved time and hassle. 1 hour ago, snowingagain said: It sounds like no one owns the house because the owner died with so much debt descendents refused to inherit. Does the OP's attachment (some of it is redacted) state that the granddaughter (minor) refused the inheritance? I assume Rochter should be Tochter. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Nov 2020 12 hours ago, snowingagain said: It sounds the owner died with so much debt descendents refused to inherit and house was sold to cover some of the costs. If that is true, then the daughter took the follow up rent illegally, so you could actually ask for the whole rent back. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Nov 2020 11 minutes ago, MikeMelga said: If that is true, then the daughter took the follow up rent illegally, so you could actually ask for the whole rent back. This was what I thought of, as it was paid to a person who appears never to have been the owner. It was paid, upon verbal instructions from the daughter it seems, into the granddaughter's account - who was a minor, at least when the rent was started to be paid to her. The OP has yet to come back to fill us in on the details. 0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Nov 2020 The landlady died in March 2018 but the inheritance was refused in December 2017? Can that be done proactively? Edit: looks like it can‘t https://www.erbrecht-ratgeber.de/erbrecht/erbschaft/ausschlagung-vor-erbfall.html ErbVERZICHT yes ErbAUSSCHLAGUNG no 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Nov 2020 If the transfer of ownership has already happened and is recorded at land registry, then the OP as a former tenant, or the lawyer acting on their behalf has a right to see the land registry book to find out who the current owner is. This current owner should have access to the deposit account where the OP's money is sitting waiting to be paid out. That account shouldn't just be closed and the money paid to anyone - the bank should notice that it is not part of the deceased assets and should not be included in any transfer (especially if there were debts to cover), but that it is a deposit account and that the money held belongs to a third party. The new owner should have been paid this money by the person managing the estate who would have had access to it after the landlady died. It appears that this account has been forgotten about or worryingly it has been closed and the money paid out erroneously somewhere down the line. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Nov 2020 16 hours ago, lunaCH said: I understand this to be the granddaughter, not the niece. It's fishy that the daughter wanted the rent paid into the account of a minor. Is the granddaughter still a minor now? Indeed, granddaughter not niece, my mistake. I am not sure, at that time she was looking like 12 yrs old, but never thought to ask :( 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Nov 2020 16 hours ago, lunaCH said: Who became the legal owner of the property? If it was the granddaughter alone, why did the lawyer not find this out before going after the mother? Or are there other joint owners? Indeed, I was dissapointed that my lawyer didnot investigate this side, especially that I mentioned to him that there are 2 offsprings, and I ask his advice if I should sue them both or just Mrs I ... This is why I am asking for help here, maybe someone had a similar case.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Nov 2020 15 hours ago, snowingagain said: If your lawyer is perplexed by this case, I doubt you will get much relevant advice from some expats. I hope someone faced a similar context, this is why I posted here. If not....well, I hope I may find a right way of action Till now I see people giving ideas about starting points which I did not thought about, so is already useful :) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Nov 2020 15 hours ago, vivanco said: Hope you have proof that the money was paid by bank transfer. Good luck. I do ....14 bank payment orders, sent to my lawyer too 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Nov 2020 15 hours ago, snowingagain said: It sounds the owner died with so much debt descendents refused to inherit and house was sold to cover some of the costs. Oooops....this one never crossed through my mind But if sold, who will take the left money, if there are any? So again, I have first to find out who is the current owner of the house. From where shall I start? Rathaus? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted 17 Nov 2020 2 hours ago, martinamr said: The landlady died in March 2018 but the inheritance was refused in December 2017? Can that be done proactively? Edit: looks like it can‘t https://www.erbrecht-ratgeber.de/erbrecht/erbschaft/ausschlagung-vor-erbfall.html I am not sure to what that 2017 from bailiff's reply is referring to... So is about the date when the inheritance has been refused? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
