The Jugendamt visited my home

74 posts in this topic

52 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said:

I suspect you are the only person on TT who reacted this way.  You‘ve made your point.   Time to stop.

 

Ok Space Cowboy - firstly, I stopped with the first message I wrote, I made my point and I was happy to leave it, it's the fact that people keep bringing it up again and again that cause me to address it again and again. Don't tell me to stop like you are the arbiter of justice, by all means point out where you disagree with me, but please don't throw commands at me, or anyone else for that matter.

 

1 hour ago, Space Cowboy said:

The Jugendamt is made up of people - German people.  It is to be expected that individuals brought up in the German culture will tend toward the bias I mentioned above, regardless of where they work

 

So are you saying is that the Jugendamt has a prejudice towards "typically German" families, i that it is made up of German people who would have a bias? 

 

Is this not a problem?  Is it not so obvious to you that this might be a problem that needs looking at, and the first step towards that might be to make people aware that there is a bias?  Does it not strike you as a little slack that people dropping their academic and professional achievements, religious beliefs and financial status into the conversation and no-one saying "woah now nelly..." is further proof that everyone has simply accepted that this is the case and is not addressing the elephant in the room?

 

I wish no ill will for OP, I honesty don't I think it reflects more on the rest of you for not just not seeing it, but from, what essentially amounts to defending the problem by saying thigs like "The Jugendamt is made up of people - German people.  It is to be expected that individuals brought up in the German culture will tend toward the bias I mentioned above," and not see how bad that is. 

 

Furthermore Space Cowboy, for someone who I have personally observed having a dig at another member because they obviously hold conservative views, I'm surprised you didn't pick on this yourself.

 

1 hour ago, Alteregouc said:

Okay, same way OP's elicited a response from you is the same way yours did from me. While I understand the point your are trying to make, 'my opinion' is that it is totally uncalled for here. This is OP's post.

 

Of course you are totally right with what you say and I accept your criticism, however if I see something I don't think is right I'm going to say something, the same as you are saying something.

 

1 hour ago, Alteregouc said:

What you did is the equivalent of me saying you are trying to put people down with your above statement about your experience and being married to a social worker here. That is my opinion.

 

While I think you are touching on something, I don't think it's the same at all.  I'm evidencing relevant past and present experience within a social group that relates directly to something I am talking about, not listing off past achievements that are entirely unrelated to someone's ability to be a good parent.

1 hour ago, Alteregouc said:

Just a plain statement of fact that is clearly not intended to put anyone down but to create a context.

 

This is exactly my point, it was not intended to put anyone down, but by mentioning only factors such academic and professional achievements, it's quite apparent that they are trying to show themselves in a positive light, and that is understandable, but lots of people do things that are understandable, it doesn't make them automatically right, or immune to criticism.

 

1 hour ago, katheliz said:

Oh, good grief. Sounds like someone has some unresolved self-esteem issues.

 

I really don't know how to respond to this one.

 

I'm not really sure why someone having low self esteem would lead them to point out something they thought was wrong?

 

I'm not going to stop defending my position as Space Cowboy wants me to, not seeing a debate through to it's conclusion just seems pointless, so as long as people challenge it, I'll keep responding, but this is now derailing the thread and I don't think that is fair on OP, if anyone has any thing that want to say to me, be good enough to DM me. if you don't DM me and challenge something I say in the thread then I'll DM you in response.

 

OP - I'm genuinely sorry that this has taken a chunk out of your thread, this was absolutely not my intention, I was not trying to launch an ideological attack personally against you, I thought I was making a direct point about unintended implications that affect us all. Clearly the majority of people think I'm way off the mark and perhaps you should take comfort in that.  I suffer from mental health problems, so I can 100% sympathise with your loss of sleep and general anxiety, for this reason I think that my own approach to pointing out something I thought was wrong, was perhaps not done in the most tactful of ways and for that I apologise. I still think my point was valid, but it is not just you, everybody does this kind of thing including myself (I'm far from perfect as is plain to see). This isn't about me trying to claim righteousness, my criticism came from the right place, I believe, but was poorly executed.

 

As you may have seen in other posts, my wife is a social worker and has worked with the Jugendamt in the past, if you need someone to speak to about this I'm sure she would be willing to give you any advice she can, a close friend of mine also used to work at Jugendamt Bamberg and I could definitely ask her if you have any specific questions .

 

D

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22 minutes ago, DaringD said:

 

Ok Space Cowboy - firstly, I stopped with the first message I wrote, I made my point and I was happy to leave it, it's the fact that people keep bringing it up again and again that cause me to address it again and again. Don't tell me to stop like you are the arbiter of justice, by all means point out where you disagree with me, but please don't throw commands at me, or anyone else for that matter.

 

My post to you was „friendly advice.“. There was no judgment or command in there - simply an observation, and a suggestion based on that observation.

 

You have clearly blown several things out of proportion.  I do appreciate that you posted in another thread that you have challenges with anger management - it makes your responses and the reasons for your responses easier to understand.

 

In light of this, let me offer my friendly advice again - it is time for you to stop with this thread.  Nothing useful will come from you continuing to post in it. 

 

 

Quote

 

 

So are you saying is that the Jugendamt has a prejudice towards "typically German" families

 

 

No.  That is not at all what I said.

 

 

22 minutes ago, DaringD said:

 

Furthermore Space Cowboy, for someone who I have personally observed having a dig at another member because they obviously hold conservative views,

 

You are mistaken.

 

If you choose to continue posting to me in this thread, please know that I will not respond further, as it is not worth my time - or yours.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said:

You have clearly blown several things out of proportion.

And so have several others in this thread. Making mountains out of molehills. I mean, the JA did their job, apologised for the hassle, said they deemed everything ok and will close the case. Nothing to lose sleep about.  What more can you want? Ask lawyers what if they change their mind? Ask them to give it in writing that they won´t investigate in the future? Ridiculous.

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1 hour ago, DaringD said:

So are you saying is that the Jugendamt has a prejudice towards "typically German" families, i that it is made up of German people who would have a bias?

 

Unfortunately, if you look back over old threads, you will sadly find that this is indeed how it appears.

 

Although to be fair we only read one side, and some of the posts are from people who seem like total nutters from their other posts, still there seems to be a sad tendency toward anti-foreigner bias.

 

I think most of us would be pretty circumspect in our dealings with them if we had to have any. I would assume that certificates with pretty colours, shiny stamps and preferably embossed with a lovely insignia would be a plus in proving my competence. 

 

The only people I know (Germans) who have personally dealt with them during various difficult moments in their lives were absolutely positive about them and their input. That your other half has worked with them is very interesting, and I bet that they are supposed to avoid bias as policy, just that it too often doesn't appear that way.

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57 minutes ago, jeba said:

And so have several others in this thread. Making mountains out of molehills. I mean, the JA did their job, apologised for the hassle, said they deemed everything ok and will close the case. Nothing to lose sleep about.  What more can you want? Ask lawyers what if they change their mind? Ask them to give it in writing that they won´t investigate in the future? Ridiculous.

 

If you believe you have a target on your back, it is somewhat uncomfortable, especially if it is unclear who might be gunning for you.  

 

I would try to let it pass.   If it would happen a second time, i would go nuclear.   At that point, it would be clear that someone has malicious intent to the point of trying to separate child and parents and an all out counter-attack would be warranted.

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9 hours ago, balticus said:

 

If you believe you have a target on your back, it is somewhat uncomfortable, especially if it is unclear who might be gunning for you.  

 

I would try to let it pass.   If it would happen a second time, i would go nuclear.   At that point, it would be clear that someone has malicious intent to the point of trying to separate child and parents and an all out counter-attack would be warranted.

How do you want to counter attack someone who denigrates you anonymously? You could go nuclear all you wanted and they wouldn´t even come to know.

 

9 hours ago, kiplette said:

Although to be fair we only read one side,

That and let´s not forget that in the end it will not be the JA but the court who decides (and I´d assume they tend to follow the law which doesn´t have an unfair bias).

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15 hours ago, expatparent said:

Our child does not have any neighbourhood friends (they just turned two) but does belong to small English language playgroup that meets once a month usually at our home

Aren´t there more playgroups in your area? You might want to ask the priests in your area. I used to visit baby playgroups 3 times a week with my kids. Those were organised by different churches and the JA. The curches  won´t care about your religion - I´m even an atheist.

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Just now, jeba said:

How do you want to counter attack someone who denigrates you anonymously? You could go nuclear all you wanted and they wouldn´t even come to know.

 

Lawyer up big time.  

 

Is there no law against harassment?  If someone files complaints with no basis out of malice, that is illegal in some places as well as a waste of tax money.

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Just now, balticus said:

 

Lawyer up big time.  

 

Is there no law against harassment?  If someone files complaints with no basis out of malice, that is illegal in some places as well as a waste of tax money.

 

Against who? And even if you knew you´d have to prove that is was malicious intent and not a genuine (but wrongful) concern. You´d be wasting your money.

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2 hours ago, jeba said:

Aren´t there more playgroups in your area? You might want to ask the priests in your area. I used to visit baby playgroups 3 times a week with my kids. Those were organised by different churches and the JA. The curches  won´t care about your religion - I´m even an atheist.

 

A Krabbelgruppe is a good idea. My 4 year old granddaughter visited one twice a week until Kindergarten at 3. Mummy (from the Philippines) made some new aquaintances and granddaughter is best friends with a little girl who also went there. They're also in the same Kindergarten together and visit each other privately since Krabbelgruppe times.

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28 minutes ago, AlexTr said:

It is inadvisable to join a krabbelgruppe during covid.

 

 

Absolutely. For a moment I had forgotten Corona. In normal times it's a good idea, though. 

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20 hours ago, Wherearewegoingto said:

Erm. Ok. I am not a lawyer so I cant give any recommendations..but maybe you can make an appointment with a family lawyer who actually can give you appropriate information about how to act if they come again.

 

This caught my eye. Apparently they didn't have to "act" to pass muster. They did fine just being themselves. I'm sure they could repeat the "performance". :)

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3 hours ago, bramble said:

 

Absolutely. For a moment I had forgotten Corona. In normal times it's a good idea, though. 

 

Bless you. I wish more of us could do that more often.

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Remember in principle it's a good thing if a concerned person alerts the Jugendamt about a child being mistreated or abused.

 

While it was upsetting for you, the visiting social worker gave you strong assurances, and the impact was minimal.

 

You cannot and shouldn't want to supress those kind of actions. Do you really want to create a society where a concerned person is afraid to report possible child abuse because if it's determined to be ok then the reporter can be sued for slander.

 

That would be like prosecuting every woman in rape cases that failed to convict for bringing false charges. 

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Except that in this case, there was no suspicion of bad parenting/danger to the child. Then it is malicious behaviour, and no, I don't think that's something anyone wants to encourage.

 

1 hour ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

the impact was minimal.

 

It totally wasn't for the OP, and that's not hard to empathise with really. It is hideous, that someone would want to report you for parenting which is so bad the state should intervene. 

 

Not that I don't get your point - it's exactly what my daughter said when I spoke to her about this post, but really there is a massive difference between reporting something which looks appalling and turns out to be a misunderstanding, and reporting to cause trouble, and there is no reason to conflate the two. The OP is not thinking of taking any action anyway.


Much easier to do than in the rape example, where the situation is nightmarish, as you assume both the truth of the allegation from the injured party, and also the absolute presumption of innocence until guilt is proven for the accused. That's a very difficult task and mostly (although obviously not always) the parties are the involved people, rather than a random bystander who thinks they saw something dodgy.

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4 hours ago, kiplette said:

Not that I don't get your point - it's exactly what my daughter said when I spoke to her about this post, but really there is a massive difference between reporting something which looks appalling and turns out to be a misunderstanding, and reporting to cause trouble, and there is no reason to conflate the two. The OP is not thinking of taking any action anyway.

 

You don't get my point. The moment you try to distinguish between a misunderstanding and malicious reporting you open up all reporters to being prosecuted because their allegations proved unfounded. It's not black & white. 

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2 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

The moment you try to distinguish between a misunderstanding and malicious reporting you open up all reporters to being prosecuted because their allegations proved unfounded.

 

I'm pretty sure that if you can prove someone bore false witness, such as if you had witnesses that could testify to them talking about doing it of having done it, then that person could absolutely be prosecuted criminally, not to mention they would then be liable for a civil case for defamation.

 

9 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

That would be like prosecuting every woman in rape cases that failed to convict for bringing false charges. 

 

This is false equivalency, many such cases cannot be prosecuted because of lack of evidence and that is not evidence of wrong doing on the part of the victim.

 

It IS equivalent however, when someone wrongfully and knowingly accuses someone of any crime as some form of attack on that person, they would be committing a criminal offence in wasting police time and resources, and civil offences such as defamation, but you would have to prove it.

 

I think people here are rightfully wanting to see that the system isn't abused, though unless it's very obvious who made the complaint AND there is proof that person knowingly lied there is almost nothing that can be done, the system is open to abuse (as the police could also be abused in the same manner) by malicious people.

 

I think the only possible way to make this any easier on people who faced a similar experience to OP, is if they provided some kind of counselling for people who find themselves really taking a hit to their mental health because of it.  It's probably something that OP could write to their local representative about, depending where they are, I'm not sure who exactly is best to contact about this kind of thing, but I'm totally sure they are not the first family to have this happen to them, nor the last.

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3 hours ago, DaringD said:

I'm pretty sure that if you can prove someone bore false witness,

Yes, but that´s a big IF. And in this case you don´t even know who to sue a it was an anonymous hint. Plus you´d need to prove that they really knew the accusation was false and they weren´t really concerned for the child´s wellbeing.

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20 hours ago, bramble said:

 

Absolutely. For a moment I had forgotten Corona. In normal times it's a good idea, though. 

 

Yes this is exactly it. My child is enrolled in a bilingual playgroup and baby music group. We also wanted to start them in a carnival club this year and dance lessons next year---but it has all been canceled due to Corona related restrictions.

 

My child just turned two years old and is on the list for a Kita place but due to an overwhelming demand and age restrictions probably will not get a spot for another year or two. We also live in an area with a lot families who need those places more than we do for economic and social reasons. 

 

The claim that we are socially isolating our child were never correct but are particularly off this year when so many opportunities to socialize have been deliberately blocked. 

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