Dijon France turns into warzone - Chechens vs North Africans

[J0ker 2,392]

On 9/2/2020, 5:17:48, Krieg said:

 

I've been refusing handshakes from males and females since March and no one seems to be offended.

Why would anybody want to shake your hand?

[john g. 37,685]

Ouch!😂

I need a manicure... then I am ready again😂!

[john g. 37,685]

What’s a Canadian? Apart from being a great place to say you are from in case some knife-wielding idiot wants to kill you on the spot for being from country A.B.C?
 

This has happened to me. I chose Switzerland in a flash.. the first thing that occurred to me one particular evening.. “ ingles “ was NOT on the cards that evening...

 

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-18086952

[alderhill 1,089]

2 hours ago, J0ker said:

What would those examples be?  You do realize that pre revolutionary France had about 50 languages but all their speakers were considered part of the French political nation?  The "feelings of autonomy" were religious (i.e. Huguenot revolt) or feudal but not ethnic.

 

The Union of Kalmar. Scotland, Ireland. The Ottoman empire and its many malcontent subjects: Greeks, Albanians, Armenians, Arabs. Berbers in North Africa. Various kingdoms playing out on the subcontinent. Imperial China many times, especially along its southern borders. Tibet. The Manchus until they became the Emperor. Russian expansionism into Siberia and Central Asia did not go easily, either, with lots of resistance and rebellions. The Aztec empire was conquered by the Spaniards because of so many discontent non-Aztec subjects (to be fair, Aztec is a cultural/political term more than an ethnic one, but they subjugated may non-Nahuatl speakers too). Slave and indigenous uprisings in European colonial Americas. Haiti. The Maroons in Jamaica and elsewhere.  Endless colonial/imperial wars and rebellions in Africa, South America and in South East Asia. The Roman empire had ethnic rebellions, too. Destruction of the Temple?

 

People understood the concept of "race" in its original sense, what we today call ethnicity. Political agitation for self-ruling homelands was often less common because there were too many less abstract things to worry about, not because it was glowing approval of the status quo.

 

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By the way you're moving goalposts by mentioning pestilence and crop failure.  I was talking about old school multiculturalism not the medicine or agriculture of that time.

 

It's a false premise to begin with, because just as nationalism did not quite exist, neither did "multiculturalism", whether "old school" or not. You're applying modern concepts in an ahistorical fashion, to a time when such concepts did not exist. 

 

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You're moving goalposts again but what can I expect from somebody with a journalism degree? Check this article out. 

 

I'm not a journalist. 

 

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Most of those millions sent to the gulags were Russians

 

The Soviets expelled among others and to varying degrees: Chechens, Ingush, Kalmyks, Tatars and a few other Turkic minority populations, Greeks, Germans, Finns and other Balts, Koreans... They 'permanently settled' many of their Siberian indigenous peoples too. 

 

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but we're not talking about the crimes of the Soviet Union

 

You invoked the USSR as a shining example, not me. Modern Russia has existed only since 1991. 

 

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I doubt you have much contact with Russians

 

Tell us how much you have, tovarish. 

 

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but apart from Chechens most of the ethnicities within Russia are well integrated

 

Thanks to a few centuries of bloody subjugation. Those surviving are those that kept their heads down.

 

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In fact you're likely not to notice the difference.

 

Maybe you can't, but Russians can and do. I've been to Russia as well. Compared to Canada, Russians in general are definitely a lot more racially aware (certainly you could sometimes say "racist") about their centuries-long compatriots. Just like here, some don't care. But some do.

 

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your downtown superficial bubble

 

I'm not from downtown, nor ever lived there.

 

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Not only new but also older immigrants tend to stick to their own community.  Sure I had Polish friends, Indian friends, Chinese friends but they tend to have their own parties, social clubs, associations etc.  Yes I got invited to those but there is very little movement towards a Canadian culture which is true for several generations.

 

My social circles were always pretty ethnically mixed. It's certainly possible to live in a bubble, and in the more sterile corners of the 905 suburbs, there are some who do. There is no one strong mainstream Canadian culture, for a few reasons. French-Canadians preventing a One Single National Culture in the first place, indigenous not buying it, regionalism in a vast (and young) country, Canada's constitutional repatriation (now no longer just a British colony, seeking a new identity, etc), post-war immigration and cultural shifts in general (from the Baby Boomers and onwards). There never will be a single Canadian culture, and it's not a problem. You are certainly no model!

 

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What a load of crap.  "What's your nationality?" is one of the most common questions I've heard outside Bay St.

 

It really isn't. In any case, as I said, the question is really about your or (grand)parent's etc. background. No one (except racists) asking the question is inferring that the other person is actually a passport carrying rabid patriot of that country who doesn't view themselves as Canadian. 

 

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And no the "Canadian" part is not assumed.  In fact often times you'll hear somebody emphasize that he's not a "caker".  I've almost heard every ethnicity I know use that word in a mocking tone.  Were you in Toronto on July 1st 2004 (Euro 2004)?  Did you notice how there were more Greek flags on cars than Canadian ones?

 

Was Canada even in the Euro 2004? Lemme check again to be sure, my memory is hazy, can't remember if we qualified for the Euro that year... 

 

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Did you ever venture outside of Church St?

 

Why do you ask, is that your favourite neighbourhood?

 

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By the way I've lived at Rexdale, Lakeshore, Dundas West, and Yonge & Eglinton and you're talking like a Toronto blah blah

 

Born and raised, want to see my birth certificate? My grandmother was born/raised in Cabbagetown when it was still a literal ghetto. My mom grew up in Mimico. My dad is from a small town, but has lived in TO since his late 20s (almost 50 years now). You're talking like an uneducated redneck clueless about the actual people he is bitching about. You surely don't view yourself as an ideal representative of Canadian culture that immigrants should model themselves on. If you're living in an ethnic bubble yourself, you're doing the very thing you're whining about. Project more.

 

BTW, you forgot to blame Justin Trudeau for everything bad.

[cb6dba 7,317]

7 hours ago, alderhill said:

 

The Union of Kalmar. Scotland, Ireland. The Ottoman empire and its many malcontent subjects: Greeks, Albanians, Armenians, Arabs. Berbers in North Africa. Various kingdoms playing out on the subcontinent. Imperial China many times, especially along its southern borders. Tibet. The Manchus until they became the Emperor. Russian expansionism into Siberia and Central Asia did not go easily, either, with lots of resistance and rebellions. The Aztec empire was conquered by the Spaniards because of so many discontent non-Aztec subjects (to be fair, Aztec is a cultural/political term more than an ethnic one, but they subjugated may non-Nahuatl speakers too). Slave and indigenous uprisings in European colonial Americas. Haiti. The Maroons in Jamaica and elsewhere.  Endless colonial/imperial wars and rebellions in Africa, South America and in South East Asia. The Roman empire had ethnic rebellions, too. Destruction of the Temple?

 

People understood the concept of "race" in its original sense, what we today call ethnicity. Political agitation for self-ruling homelands was often less common because there were too many less abstract things to worry about, not because it was glowing approval of the status quo.

 

 

It's a false premise to begin with, because just as nationalism did not quite exist, neither did "multiculturalism", whether "old school" or not. You're applying modern concepts in an ahistorical fashion, to a time when such concepts did not exist. 

 

 

I'm not a journalist. 

 

 

The Soviets expelled among others and to varying degrees: Chechens, Ingush, Kalmyks, Tatars and a few other Turkic minority populations, Greeks, Germans, Finns and other Balts, Koreans... They 'permanently settled' many of their Siberian indigenous peoples too. 

 

 

You invoked the USSR as a shining example, not me. Modern Russia has existed only since 1991. 

 

 

Tell us how much you have, tovarish. 

 

 

Thanks to a few centuries of bloody subjugation. Those surviving are those that kept their heads down.

 

 

Maybe you can't, but Russians can and do. I've been to Russia as well. Compared to Canada, Russians in general are definitely a lot more racially aware (certainly you could sometimes say "racist") about their centuries-long compatriots. Just like here, some don't care. But some do.

 

 

I'm not from downtown, nor ever lived there.

 

 

My social circles were always pretty ethnically mixed. It's certainly possible to live in a bubble, and in the more sterile corners of the 905 suburbs, there are some who do. There is no one strong mainstream Canadian culture, for a few reasons. French-Canadians preventing a One Single National Culture in the first place, indigenous not buying it, regionalism in a vast (and young) country, Canada's constitutional repatriation (now no longer just a British colony, seeking a new identity, etc), post-war immigration and cultural shifts in general (from the Baby Boomers and onwards). There never will be a single Canadian culture, and it's not a problem. You are certainly no model!

 

 

It really isn't. In any case, as I said, the question is really about your or (grand)parent's etc. background. No one (except racists) asking the question is inferring that the other person is actually a passport carrying rabid patriot of that country who doesn't view themselves as Canadian. 

 

 

Was Canada even in the Euro 2004? Lemme check again to be sure, my memory is hazy, can't remember if we qualified for the Euro that year... 

 

 

Why do you ask, is that your favourite neighbourhood?

 

 

Born and raised, want to see my birth certificate? My grandmother was born/raised in Cabbagetown when it was still a literal ghetto. My mom grew up in Mimico. My dad is from a small town, but has lived in TO since his late 20s (almost 50 years now). You're talking like an uneducated redneck clueless about the actual people he is bitching about. You surely don't view yourself as an ideal representative of Canadian culture that immigrants should model themselves on. If you're living in an ethnic bubble yourself, you're doing the very thing you're whining about. Project more.

 

BTW, you forgot to blame Justin Trudeau for everything bad.

I'm guessing you will have to either wait a week for long reply or you'll get a few sentences.

Either way there will be hooks to try to annoy you, drag you off topic and divert from the points you made.

Have to say the bit about asking where people are from has always made me laugh, seems like a normal question me but it does raise a further question. Is it ok to ask where people's family originated form and if so, how far back before it get all weird..

 

If i'm asked I would say say the UK, but i'm white so usually the questioning ends there. If I were black then the question of 'where my family originated from' could crop up. Say I say 'London' as my family have been there for 5 generations. What if the person presses as they are interested where in the world my family lived before they got to London.

It's a tricky situation, the question can be innocent curiosity or it can be dumb racism based on the motivation of the person asking the question. Either way it can be taken as offensive by the person being questioned.

 

[alderhill 1,089]

3 hours ago, cb6dba said:

I'm guessing you will have to either wait a week for long reply or you'll get a few sentences.

 

I doubt I'll give him much more attention. He is a moron and a troll, but since he is making blatant falsities about my hometown, I thought I better not let him malign it unfairly lest anyone actually believe him.

 

3 hours ago, cb6dba said:

Have to say the bit about asking where people are from has always made me laugh, seems like a normal question me but it does raise a further question. Is it ok to ask where people's family originated form and if so, how far back before it get all weird..

 

Indeed it depends on the intent... When we asked as kids, I can say that it really was about background, national belonging was still kind of an abstract concept at age 6 or 7 or whatever. And really everyone got asked, even the cakers (comes from Italian immigrants, who noticed the local Anglo-Saxons sure loved to eat cake). When the assumption is you're not local, it's of course annoying, alienating and can even be discriminatory. For visible minorities especially of the Nth generation, I can understand how this gets real old real quick. (A microaggression in modern lingo). I would never ask someone I just met or didn't know well. I think it's OK for little kids to ask, so they can navigate social contexts of their own generation in their own way, but parents/teachers should explain how it can be misunderstood. I suppose the UK is the European country with the most immigration experience, due to Empire and all (France, Portugal and Spain runners up). But in settler societies like Canada, everyone bar indigenous is an immigrant, so the question about background is not always quite as loaded. Everyone's ancestors were from somewhere else, and that's generally understood (though not by racist idiots, it seems). Where it gets messy is if you're a Nth generation mixed mutt, which is more common than not. I just say Canadian usually, even though I know my various ethnic roots going back many generations (8th gen Canadian) and we still have relatives we speak to in one European country. 

 

Many years ago, I did a few international travels with one of my best friends, who is (India) Indian background, but grew up in Canada. In many places, this clearly boggled the minds of many, who'd ask us where we were from. (However, even in India, they often knew right away he was an FBI, foreign-born Indian, even though he was actually born in India. Clothes and manners too Western, people would say, and I guess cause he was walking around with me.) We always made people guess. In many different places, we got Brazil a lot (obviously no one thinks about Canada). I suppose because it was somewhere people could imagine a white guy and a brown guy could both live. That was actually a convenient guess, because touts can rattle off quite a bit of English, French, Spanish, German, Russian, Chinese... but apparently not Portuguese. 

Uhhhh, sim siiiiiim, o Brasil! Fala Portugues? Nao? Nao? Oh desculpe, eu nao falo Inglis. Sorrrry, bye bye.

 

[john g. 37,685]

Greets, Alderhill! When I was living in Rio many years ago, I made friends with a black Guyanese guy, Peter.

He became my flatmate.

He was an English teacher there but never made an effort to learn Portuguese.

 

What made him laugh? The locals ( including black Brazilians ) couldn’t understand how he couldn’t speak Portuguese as he was black!

 

PS: here in Greece- just about everyone asks a stranger ( foreigner ) where they are from from the word go.

Our local taverna owner at the beach the other day... I asked him “ how’s business today?”

 

He answered: “ English, Welsh, French, German and Austrian.”

 

I remember last year when a couple of tourists sat down at his place and Panagiotis asked them where they were from. The woman was indignified. “ Why do you want to know?”

Panagiotis managed to pacify her and her husband : “ it is normal to ask that here” and in the end it was ok.

 

( They were Danes, by the way.)

 

[cb6dba 7,317]

37 minutes ago, alderhill said:

I would never ask someone I just met or didn't know well.

Which is really the polite thing to do, it certainly isn't something I would press a person on. It's none of my business and if they wanted to tell me they would.

I know people that would press out of curiosity and an interest to know. They don't mean anything by it but it can cause offence.

 

 

[john g. 37,685]

Definitions of politeness are often culture- bound... that is my point. Basically, if there is no malice intended, I don’t really see the problem.

[AnswerToLife42 2,491]

 

1 hour ago, alderhill said:

I would never ask someone I just met or didn't know well.

Which is really the polite thing to do, it certainly isn't something I would press a person on. It's none of my business and if they wanted to tell me they would.

I know people that would press out of curiosity and an interest to know. They don't mean anything by it but it can cause offence.

Since the risk is so high you could offend people just by talking to them, I would not do it.

It is not necessary today.

Everyone has a smartphone. Instead of talking to people and possibly just using the wrong gender, watch youtube videos.

Problem solved.

 

[jeba 4,345]

2 hours ago, john g. said:

PS: here in Greece- just about everyone asks a stranger ( foreigner ) where they are from from the word go.

Same here in Cyprus. And I dont see a problem with it. In fact I´ve done the same all my life. It may open avenues for interesting conversations (and being German I´m grateful for any hint what to have that dreadful smalltalk about ). If I meet fellow Germans I also ask from where in Germany they´re from and people are asking me where exactly I´m from when I´m telling them I´m German. Brits also do (and there are a lot of them in Cyprus).

[john g. 37,685]

1 hour ago, AnswerToLife42 said:

 

Which is really the polite thing to do, it certainly isn't something I would press a person on. It's none of my business and if they wanted to tell me they would.

I know people that would press out of curiosity and an interest to know. They don't mean anything by it but it can cause offence.

Since the risk is so high you could offend people just by talking to them, I would not do it.

It is not necessary today.

Everyone has a smartphone. Instead of talking to people and possibly just using the wrong gender, watch youtube videos.

Problem solved.

 

“ using the wrong gender “😂😂😂

Brilliant!!

[cb6dba 7,317]

I think the issue isn't being asked here you are from, it's being pressed on where you are *really* from...

As in, a non white person says 'London' and then questioner presses the issue 'no, where are you really from' - which would be a dumb f*ck thing to ask, or 'ah ok, but where are your parents from' 'grandparents, great grandparents' etc.

 

For me the first answer is always enough. I've never met this person before so firstly I'd just accept what thyy say and secondly, I'm not really that interested in where their parents are from. I'd just assume it's the same place they are from.

Generally my interest is more just location interest, maybe i've been there, maybe I know some else from there, maybe they know each other (as we all know, so few people live in the various cities, they all must know each other right).

 

Although as I said, I know people that are just motivated to know what a person's heritage is but missing that little check that says 'this isn't really the thing you ask a person you've just met'.. They don't mean any harm or offence.

 

I generally just assume that it isn't any of my business and if they want to tell me anything, they will at some point. Until then it isn't important.   

 

[dessa_dangerous 13,315]

we need to give people the language they need so we can avoid all this potential unpleasantness.  I think most visible minorities would not be offended to be asked about their ethnic background, but actually *most* grownups of all stripes seems to be lacking the right words and formulations to find out the information they want, and wind up (mostly) inadvertently sticking their foot in their mouths and becoming offensive without really meaning to.  

 

For example I am much more likely to be forthcoming about my ethnicity than my nationality, because people have opinions about my nationality and it's socially acceptable for them to tell me all their opinions on and experiences in my country, whereas it is less OK to tell me about that one black guy they knew  either question is fine, but if I were in a mood or wanted to not talk about one of them, it would be my nationality and I think for most people it's the same.  No one's ashamed or afraid to talk about their ethnic background but yes, sometimes I feel like my nationality is none of their business.

I'm a foreigner, so the questions somehow go hand in hand, but I'm sure it must be highly irritating for Afro-Deutsche to be spoken to like foreigners in their own country.  

[dessa_dangerous 13,315]

PSA for people who want to know why some people look different from some other people.  Here are the words you need to get the information you want without offending anybody!  

 

Do: "Say, I hope I'm not being too forward, but would you mind if I asked what your ethnic background is?"

 

Don't: "Oh my, you are just soooo exotic looking, you remind me of this girl I had a crush on in college, she was Honduran, are you from there?  No?  Where are you from?  No, but where are you really from?" 
Don't: "I have a niece who looks JUST LIKE YOU.  You're mixed, right?"

 

Do accept the first answer they give you.  Don't press for more information than they volunteer.  Please DON'T tell them you know someone who looks JUST LIKE THEM!  Think about it, who wants to hear that?  Would you like to hear that?  I know someone who is of your ethnicity, and I can't tell people of your ethnicity apart, so to me you all look the same!  e.g. YOU LOOK JUST LIKE MY OTHER WHITE FRIEND, DAN!

 

you're welcome

[john g. 37,685]

22 minutes ago, dessa_dangerous said:

we need to give people the language they need so we can avoid all this potential unpleasantness.  I think most visible minorities would not be offended to be asked about their ethnic background, but actually *most* grownups of all stripes seems to be lacking the right words and formulations to find out the information they want, and wind up (mostly) inadvertently sticking their foot in their mouths and becoming offensive without really meaning to.  

 

For example I am much more likely to be forthcoming about my ethnicity than my nationality, because people have opinions about my nationality and it's socially acceptable for them to tell me all their opinions on and experiences in my country, whereas it is less OK to tell me about that one black guy they knew  either question is fine, but if I were in a mood or wanted to not talk about one of them, it would be my nationality and I think for most people it's the same.  No one's ashamed or afraid to talk about their ethnic background but yes, sometimes I feel like my nationality is none of their business.

I'm a foreigner, so the questions somehow go hand in hand, but I'm sure it must be highly irritating for Afro-Deutsche to be spoken to like foreigners in their own country.  

For some reason, I think ( maybe wrongly ) you may be referring to me? ( The one black guy comment.) Accept my apologies, please, if I am wrong.

I have had friends of dozens of nationalities for ever and of all kinds of colours ( ranging from as pale as shit to ebony ) and creeds and sexual orientation and bless them all. 

I don‘t give a shit but it is natural for me ( as a former traveller, language teacher , dreamer and part time amateur cathedral swallower ) to ask where people are from... it comes with the territory.

I love accents, for example, and love to guess where people are from. I even got one right the other day!😂

There was something „ in there „ the way the guy spoke on Skype  and I guessed Bristol. Yep!

I think Arunadasi on this forum may understand me but hardly anyone else.😂😟💋🙈
 

[dessa_dangerous 13,315]

@john g. no, I wasn't referring to you.   

[john g. 37,685]

Oh, I feel ignored!😂💋💋

Actually, this where-are-you- from lark can work differently... allow me to explain!😂

Last year, we were outside our beach taverna, looking wonderfully innocent and tanned ( and maybe Greek to a non-Greek?😂) and an elderly tourist couple approached us and asked ( politely, without shouting!) „ Hello, do you speak English? We are from Wales, the United Kingdom.“

 

Sad! ( in a way..)... cos if you are from Wales, it is a place most people in most countries have never heard of and that includes most Europeans unless they are rugby fans! 
I am not much of a national anthem type person but I might become one if I had this to sing! Bloody hell!💋

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dessa_dangerous 13,315]

I changed it, john, from "I wasn't talking to or about you" to "I wasn't referring to you" cos it sounded a little mean to me, too!  

[john g. 37,685]

You are becoming wise, dessa!💋🙏🏻😂 ( it is a long process... usually hits a peak in the Autumn!)