Why get Married?

45 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, LeonG said:

People who are living together and not married should definitely think about what would happen if they split up or if one of them dies. I have heard of cases where all the assets were in one name and splitting up meant that one individual kept all and the other walked out with their toothbrush and change of clothes.  There was also a case in the media where the man died, his name was on the condo as sole owner and his minor children inherited the condo. Due to the person appointed as the guardian of the children's assets and inheritance, the struggling mother was forced to pay rent to her children for the condo she had bought with their father.

 

Isn't that what wills are for?

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46 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Isn't that what wills are for?

 

Unfortunately (depending on how you look at it) you cannot write what you might want into a will in Germany - unlike in the UK where you can decide to leave all to the proverbial Dog's Home.

 

Its also much simpler in the UK - you type up your will, get two witnesses (who are not allowed to be benificiaries) & the job is done.

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5 hours ago, LeonG said:

People who are living together and not married should definitely think about what would happen if they split up or if one of them dies. I have heard of cases where all the assets were in one name and splitting up meant that one individual kept all and the other walked out with their toothbrush and change of clothes.  There was also a case in the media where the man died, his name was on the condo as sole owner and his minor children inherited the condo. Due to the person appointed as the guardian of the children's assets and inheritance, the struggling mother was forced to pay rent to her children for the condo she had bought with their father.

I think this is were my communist heritage turns on as I don't understand this German idea of ruining each others lives during divorce.

 

In our culture (Ukraine) women own everything. My mom owns all the apartments and my dad owns nothing. This is how it is done, to protect the more vulnerable partner (a woman). However that doesn't mean in case of divorce the former husband becomes homeless with only a toothpaste. Usually a couple sells the apartment and the money is used to buy smaller apartments for everyone. This is not regulated by any courts, there is this thing called "ethics" which is lost in current western societies.

 

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1 minute ago, yourkeau said:

I think this is were my communist heritage turns on as I don't understand this German idea of ruining each others lives during divorce.

 

In our culture (Ukraine) women own everything. My mom owns all the apartments and my dad owns nothing. This is how it is done, to protect the more vulnerable partner (a woman). However that doesn't mean in case of divorce the former husband becomes homeless with only a toothpaste. Usually a couple sells the apartment and the money is used to buy smaller apartments for everyone. This is not regulated by any courts, there is this things called "ethics" which is lost in current western societies.

 

 

Gosh! That all sounds terribly civilized, Yourkeau!

Sounds like other countries could learn a LOT from the Ukrainian way of doing things!

 

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28 minutes ago, HEM said:

 

Unfortunately (depending on how you look at it) you cannot write what you might want into a will in Germany -

 

 

 

It's simple in Germany too, though it has to be handwritten, signed with place and date. No witnesses necessary. It's even valid if it is written on a Bierdeckel.

 

39 minutes ago, HEM said:

unlike in the UK where you can decide to leave all to the proverbial Dog's Home.

 

This is also possible in Germany:

Ein Testament zugunsten der Tierschutzliga

Folgendes gibt es zu beachten, wenn Sie der Tierschutzliga Stiftung Tier und Natur in Ihrem Testament bedenken möchten:

  • das Testament muss mit eigener Hand geschrieben sein.
  • es muss unterschrieben sein.
  • Ort und Datum dürfen nicht fehlen.

Wir empfehlen Ihnen außerdem einen Notar einzuschalten, bei dem Sie Ihr Testament hinterlegen.

https://tierschutzliga.de/foerdern-stiften-vererben-engagement-fuer-den-tierschutz/testament-und-erbschaft-tierschutz-ueber-den-tod-hinaus/#:~:text=Ein%20Testament%20zugunsten%20der%20Tierschutzliga,und%20Datum%20d%C3%BCrfen%20nicht%20fehlen.

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Yes, simple wills are very easy to do here, but any offspring are entitled to a compulsory share whether you like it or not.

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Great responses so far! Thanks everyone.

 

Well, she's not a Beamtin, so that's right out. I think the kid will probably end up with my last name, so I hope that and my name on a birth certificate should satisfy most legal challenges such as traveling. Maybe at some point, the advantages would start to press in and make it feel more worth it, but that sort of only pushes me to wait. That way we can enjoy those benefits! Also not like we can have much of a wedding in these Corona times...

 

As for getting married to the purposes of smoothing out death and divorce, dang y'all, that's a little grim! Although I see your point 

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1 hour ago, yourkeau said:

I think this is were my communist heritage turns on as I don't understand this German idea of ruining each others lives during divorce.

 

In our culture (Ukraine) women own everything. My mom owns all the apartments and my dad owns nothing. This is how it is done, to protect the more vulnerable partner (a woman). However that doesn't mean in case of divorce the former husband becomes homeless with only a toothpaste. Usually a couple sells the apartment and the money is used to buy smaller apartments for everyone. This is not regulated by any courts, there is this thing called "ethics" which is lost in current western societies.

 

Wow, where people are actually nice to each other :)   Some people in western Europe are civilized too but having a partnership where all the assets are in one persons name is a temptation in a bad breakup for the person whose name is on everything to just keep it all and kick the other one out.  If someone chooses not to get married for whatever reason, they need to tie up lose ends.

 

2 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Isn't that what wills are for?

 

Absolutely and so many people don't have one plus what HEM said that you can't just put in it what you want.  In the case of the mother paying rent to her kids, if the condo had been 50% in her name, it would have helped and a will limiting the right of the children to the pflichtteil would have helped but the children would still have owned a good chunk of the condo.

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1 hour ago, Feierabend said:

Yes, simple wills are very easy to do here, but any offspring are entitled to a compulsory share whether you like it or not.

I have never agreed with that as a principle.

What if your son/ daughter doesn’t give a shit about you? ( NOT my case with my daughter, I hasten to add!🙏🏻).

 

When my Dad died in an old folk’s home, he bequeathed his house to a woman who had lived in there with her son for donkey’s years and looked after him.

 

My Mum had long remarried, my brother and sister had flown the nest ages before and rarely visited. I was never there, either. Abroad.

Funeral. I flew in. Then the rows started. I didn’t want anything. My sister was angry she wasn’t offered anything in the Will. I wasn’t.

 

None of us had kept the relationship to our father alive. Reasons for that, of course...

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16 minutes ago, john g. said:

I have never agreed with that as a principle.

Oh, me neither. In principle I feel people should be able to dispose of their hard-earned assets as they see fit. I think it's appalling that a "child" can claim it's Pflichtteil before the surviving spouse snuffs it, maybe forcing widow/er to sell their home as a consequence. And despite clauses to discourage offspring from claiming against the surviving spouse, they still have that right.

I wonder how often it happens that kids claim their Pflichtteil?

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We had a similar situation and our lawyer explained it like this to us: if you are married, its easier when you end your relationship. Which you will one day, voluntarily or involuntarily. It wraps up the legalities of living together (with shared children) in one document, where you would otherwise need to get a legal document to describe your choice each time.  House buying, for example, and as people mentioned above, inheritance needs careful looking at (if one partner dies early,  do you expect to have everything transferred to the other to use to carry on looking after your child as you would have together?)  https://www.sueddeutsche.de/geld/rangfolge-der-erben-wie-das-gesetz-die-erbfolge-regelt-1.2387911-2 

 

Did you know this, for example?

Ohne Trauschein oder eingetragene Lebenspartnerschaft sind auch langjährige Paare nicht füreinander vertretungsberechtigt

https://www.afilio.de/post/recht/vorsorgedokumente/kinder-absichern-sorgerecht-und-finanzen

In Notsituationen, aber auch bei einem normalen Klinikaufenthalt ist es für Unverheiratete schwierig, Auskünfte vom Klinikpersonal zu erhalten. Denn auch wenn Sie zusammen leben: Unverheiratete sind nicht befugt, Entscheidungen für den Partner zu treffen, wenn er oder sie nicht selbst dazu in der Lage ist.

 

There are also tax advantages, and you should consider the Rente/Krankenkasse story especially if the one partner takes some time off to care for the child/reduces work hours.

 

Here is a list of the financial advantages, also in terms of death taxes:

https://www.bbx.de/verheiratet-vs-unverheiratet-finanziell-besser/

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8 minutes ago, Feierabend said:

Oh, me neither. In principle I feel people should be able to dispose of their hard-earned assets as they see fit. I think it's appalling that a "child" can claim it's Pflichtteil before the surviving spouse snuffs it, maybe forcing widow/er to sell their home as a consequence. And despite clauses to discourage offspring from claiming against the surviving spouse, they still have that right.

I wonder how often it happens that kids claim their Pflichtteil

Dunno - but I also have my doubts when it comes to the kids having to pay parts of the costs of a Pflegeheim for a parent- whether the relationship was good or not.

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AND I also became friends years ago with a Klaus in Hamburg, who was really depressed long term. He had had a one- night stand at a party with a woman , who became pregnant. Now, he told me the baby was eventually born but he was not allowed contact to the child, had never seen the child .. but had to pay monthly to the woman. He was a gentle man who wouldn‘t harm a fly. But had no access to his child.

Doesn‘t seem fair, either..

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10 minutes ago, Feierabend said:

Oh, me neither. In principle I feel people should be able to dispose of their hard-earned assets as they see fit. I think it's appalling that a "child" can claim it's Pflichtteil before the surviving spouse snuffs it, maybe forcing widow/er to sell their home as a consequence. And despite clauses to discourage offspring from claiming against the surviving spouse, they still have that right.

I wonder how often it happens that kids claim their Pflichtteil?

 

In my home country, a surviving spouse can request not to pay out inheritance until they die.  However, if the deceased had children from a different relationship who don't want to wait, they can challenge it and force a split.

 

Inheritance is something that can really cause bad blood.  I don't think it's fair that parents have to give inheritance to children who haven't taken good care of them but then I don't like it much either if parents take inheritance away from children that have been taken good care of them, possibly favoring one golden child or the tierheim or whatever.

 

17 minutes ago, john g. said:

Dunno - but I also have my doubts when it comes to the kids having to pay parts of the costs of a Pflegeheim for a parent- whether the relationship was good or not.

 

And it goes even further than that.  A coworker had to pony up for the funeral of a much older half brother she hardly knew.  At least it was split a few ways so she only had to pay around 1000 but still.  She said they didn't even know he died until much later so it's not even like they had any influence on the cost of the funeral.  Another person I know was being asked to pay for the funeral of an ex husband who had remarried a decade earlier.  His new wife was being asked to pay too although neither of them had any money so the state paid in the end.

 

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20 minutes ago, john g. said:

AND I also became friends years ago with a Klaus in Hamburg, who was really depressed long term. He had had a one- night stand at a party with a woman , who became pregnant. Now, he told me the baby was eventually born but he was not allowed contact to the child, had never seen the child .. but had to pay monthly to the woman. He was a gentle man who wouldn‘t harm a fly. But had no access to his child.

Doesn‘t seem fair, either..

 

I don't have a problem with him having to pay because he was apparently quite happy to help in the making of the child.  With a one night stand, it's a risk you take.  However, I don't think it's fair he couldn't get visitation.  I don't think it would be a good idea to link visitation with child support though.  Actually a father who has his children a lot of the time should be paying less if anything.

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7 hours ago, john g. said:

I have never agreed with that as a principle.

I do. I wouldn´t want my kids to spend all I will hopefully leave to them, just as my parents would have hated me spending all my inheritance. I´m enjoying the income derived from it but I´d never touch the capital stock itself.

 

7 hours ago, john g. said:

When my Dad died in an old folk’s home, he bequeathed his house to a woman who had lived in there with her son for donkey’s years and looked after him.

My GF´s mother lived with her stepdad for 49 years and looked after him until his death when he had cancer. She inherited nothing as they weren´t married. It all went to his siblings he hadn´t been in contact with for decades.

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12 hours ago, john g. said:

AND I also became friends years ago with a Klaus in Hamburg, who was really depressed long term. He had had a one- night stand at a party with a woman , who became pregnant. Now, he told me the baby was eventually born but he was not allowed contact to the child, had never seen the child .. but had to pay monthly to the woman. He was a gentle man who wouldn‘t harm a fly. But had no access to his child.

Doesn‘t seem fair, either..

 

Sad all round, I do not know, but can he not go to court over it ?, I would have thought, that unless he has some serious criminal record he should be legally allowed to see his kid for some time every so often. Any comment, I would like to know if this is not the case. Maybe he just did not want the hassle etc of going to court over it ?

 

And then of course, if he does not have to pay then who should, should it be left to the tax payer ???

 

Having said all of that, its a shitty situation allround, seems like that is no good outcome.

 

Similar thing happened to a guy in my work office, he announced that he was going to Australia, I guess hoping to forget the whole situation - and not having to pay either.

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The whole split up but have a baby can be a nightmare.

I've been lucky to have seen this from both sides (not so lucky for the people involved) with the guy not interested in seeing the kid (that was the guy we know) and the guy fighting tooth and nail to see the kid when the mother wanted him out of their lives (we knew the mother).
The guy we know pays but doesn't see the kid, the woman we know has to put up with her ex having an influence on the kid (which form what I've been told is ok, he's not a bad father, the mother just wants to kid to herself).

Ultimately, this all goes well if you have a kid with a person who can be reasonable and an adult if the split comes.

Most people do not have a kid with a person like that.

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14 hours ago, john g. said:

Dunno - but I also have my doubts when it comes to the kids having to pay parts of the costs of a Pflegeheim for a parent- whether the relationship was good or not.

I recently saw an item on that topic. The average pension in Germany is around €1100, but the own part (Eigenanteil) in a care home has crossed the €2000 barrier on average. Now, the children have to chip in, but there is a plan that they don't have to do so anymore if their annual income is below €100,000.

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