double health insurance

35 posts in this topic

hi all

i need to register in germany as a resident and yes that means health insurance.  however  i will still be emplyed by uk company  therefore  i  can't registed with any of the health insurance companies here as they say you  need to "cancel" the uk one... i  simply want them to take my money and  stamp the paper...has anyone managed this  ?  

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Can you not continue using the UK private health insurance? What type is it exactly and have you tried to see if it is still valid abroad? 

How long are you going to be resident for? If only temporarily you may not need insurance here.

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16 minutes ago, lunaCH said:

Can you not continue using the UK private health insurance? What type is it exactly and have you tried to see if it is still valid abroad? 

How long are you going to be resident for? If only temporarily you may not need insurance here.

the uk i pay  national insurance.  deducted from my wages.  i will be a permenant resident here  -  i actually wanted citizenship but the same problem applies  , you need health insurance.  

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NI contributions might continue to be deducted from a UK salary as they ultimately are also funding your right to UK benefits, UK old age pension and is also UK disability insurance in the meantime. I am not sure what happens though if you become a non-resident of the UK but continue to be employed there. When I became a non-resident I simply stopped paying NI as it was voluntary from then on. 

You can try to register for private insurance here.

Health insurance is supposedly compulsory here, though about one million people don't have it, with this number tending to rise. :rolleyes: 

You can register as a resident without it. No one checks if you have it or take it out. My partner did not have it for the initial eight months here, no questions asked. ;) When we took out insurance, we were not asked to provide any proof of a prior cancellation.

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If it wasn't for brexit I would do the same but without health insurance you are not actually a resident. It is common misconception that Anmeldung is this but it is only proof of address not proof of residency. Yes yes splitting hairs but this is Germany and brexit looms. 

 

I actually want to pay both in UK and here. The problem is that they always ask for form E104 which you only get when you leave employment in uk

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2 minutes ago, stuie123 said:

If it wasn't for brexit I would do the same but without health insurance you are not actually a resident. It is common misconception that Anmeldung is this but it is only proof of address not proof of residency. Yes yes splitting hairs but this is Germany and brexit looms. 

 

I actually want to pay both in UK and here. The problem is that they always ask for form E104 which you only get when you leave employment in uk

As far as I know with the end of the transition period coming up and the need not only to be registered but also to apply for a residence permit (at the moment by 30.6.21 mind you) - yes we have this complication, but I am not sure whether the fact you have insurance or not is going to be checked. Anyway of course you want insurance, but have you tried to contact an insurance company that offers it privately?

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TT has 2 great Health Insurance experts, who advertise their services on TT. You could try contacting them- see them on Financial section:

John Gunn

Starshollow.

 

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31 minutes ago, lunaCH said:

Health insurance is supposedly compulsory here, though about one million people don't have it, with this number tending to rise. :rolleyes: 

You can register as a resident without it. No one checks if you have it or take it out. My partner did not have it for the initial eight months here, no questions asked. ;) When we took out insurance, we were not asked to provide any proof of a prior cancellation.

 

The official number for people without health insurance is < 100k, at least among people who are in the country legally (which the OP would be). Certainly not a million.

As for not having insurance for the first 8 months and getting away with it, there are plenty of examples on these boards of people who didn't get away with it, and as you won't be paying their back-charged fees, please do not advise this. It really irks me, when people publicly boast about illegal behaviour as if it was a good thing. No-one is perfect, but I don't feel the need to tell everyone about my occasionally shitty behaviour ?! What good can possibly come of that ?

As for the OP, I would start here:

https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/372650-living-in-germany-but-working-for-uk-company/?page=7

You will probably have to sort out your employment situation properly and then the rest will fall into place. And as RedMdige said, there are two insurance brokers on this board who have heard it all before and they might be able to help you. If you are aiming for citizenship I would make sure you play strictly by the rules, everything else comes under "how to make your life difficult".

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34 minutes ago, Marianne013 said:

The official number for people without health insurance is < 100k, at least among people who are in the country legally (which the OP would be). Certainly not a million.

 

As for not having insurance for the first 8 months and getting away with it, there are plenty of examples on these boards of people who didn't get away with it, and as you won't be paying their back-charged fees, please do not advise this.

Under 100k is a very low estimate indeed simply and clearly designed to dress up the numbers. Germany has a serious problem with people not having access to proper health care because insurance has become compulsory yet at the same time the obligation is not enforced properly and lets people just flop about and slip through the system. 

A quick search pulls up far higher figures: 

 

Here they speak of at least 300'000 with up to 2'000'000 having only partial access to serviceshttps://www.br.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/leben-ohne-krankenversicherung,RonruNV 

 

Here of several hundred thousandhttps://diegesundheitsexperten.de/keine-krankenversicherung/ 

 

And here 500'000https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/menschen-ohne-krankenversicherung-bloss-nicht-krank-werden.976.de.html?dram:article_id=475593 

 

I previously read another article (can no longer find it, sorry) which stated 1'000'000, which is why I mentioned it. ;)

 

I was in no way advising it nor boasting about my partner not having had insurance for the initial months here, I was merely mentioning that it does happen. Moreover it is not illegal not to be insured.

A way around back-payments is to de-register and re-register residence here a few months later. The first sojourn would not even be looked at. :rolleyes:

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I don‘t know what the true number of people in Germany without health insurance is.

 

The fact is : it has been compulsory for non-employees since 2009.

Many ( especially ) Brits rely on their EHIC card- some truly believe it is enough, some don‘t. One reason some think it is ok- German doctors don‘t bat an eyelid.
Some just put off doing anything about it because they feel healthy and immortal ( I personally was uninsured for 7 years in my 20s whilst travelling around and never gave it a thought! It never crossed my mind even once!)

 

Some would rather booze and party their way around instead of getting insured. Some say „ oh, if I get really sick, I‘ll just go back home.“

 

Double whammy- Brexit and Covid have changed the picture. I couldn‘t be busier. 
The penny has dropped.

 

For the first time, Brits will be facing having to prove they are health insured.

If people can not prove they have been in the NHS for at least the past 12 months and are not employees, they cannot get into voluntary membership of German public insurance. If they are self-employed and have been in Germany for over three months, they cannot get public insurance. If they become employees and get into German public insurance, they face backpayments- yes, they DO.

 

If they are self-employed and have either no insurance or a travel-type insurance such as Mawista, CareConcept, they cannot switch to German public insurance.

 

Above paragraph is also problematic if they want German private insurance but right now either have no insurance or a travel-type insurance. Even if they earn quite well AND are healthy- the vast majority of German private insurers will either refuse your custom or charge backpayments. In certain cases, I can help and get around the backpayments!

 

Non-EU citizens and even EU citizens - in most cases, if self-employed and have been living outside Europe  immediately prior to moving to Germany and thus not in a European country‘s public health system for at least the past 12 months- no German public insurance possible.

 

Non-EU citizens coming to Germany as freelancers/ self-employed need a residence permit/ work permit etc and must prove they have valid health insurance BUT - Catch 22 - to qualify for German private insurance, they must already prove they have a valid EXISTING residence/ work permit etc. Many German private insurers won‘t take the risk anyway because they can‘t check the creditworthiness of the client if they are new to Germany.

 

As such, they won‘t take the risk because they cannot cancel the client‘s contract for eg non-payment of the premiums... because of the legal obligation to be health insured!!

 

etc etc etc!!

 

PS. i have just moved this thread to Finance, where it belongs as a topic and where it will be read by more people maybe facing difficulties re their  health insurance situation.

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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16 minutes ago, john g. said:

For the first time, Brits will be facing having to prove they are health insured.

Is this a requirement to be issued with a so called Alt-Briten residence permit which are scheduled to be phased in soon and by 30.6.21 at the latest? I have health insurance so it is not a concern for me, but I am interested in the source of the information on this please.

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I assume so. I have responded to an email from the Hamburg Ausländeramt in which I had to state I have valid health insurance, a tax number, Anmeldung since bla bla bla.

I am still registered in Hamburg for legal reasons ( Chamber of Commerce, broker‘s licence etc ) and intending to return to Hamburg once the Corona thingy has quietened down.

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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My understanding is though that all of these regional procedures are still provisional until the actual official ones are issued on a national level and that the latter have not been issued as yet due to the delays in Brexit, corona and the ongoing wrangling in the transition period. :rolleyes: 

Some regions have not issued any details on registration procedures at all. I've merely been told I simply have to be a resident (which I already am owing to Brexit) and that I can leave it as late as June 2021 to get the new residence card.

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31 minutes ago, john g. said:

I don‘t know what the true number of people in Germany without health insurance is.

 

The fact is : it has been compulsory for non-employees since 2009.

Many ( especially ) Brits rely on their EHIC card- some truly believe it is enough, some don‘t. One reason some think it is ok- German doctors don‘t bat an eyelid.
Some just put off doing anything about it because they feel healthy and immortal ( I personally was uninsured for 7 years in my 20s whilst travelling around and never gave it a thought! It never crossed my mind even once!)

 

Some would rather booze and party their way around instead of getting insured. Some say „ oh, if I get really sick, I‘ll just go back home.“

 

Double whammy- Brexit and Covid have changed the picture. I couldn‘t be busier. 
The penny has dropped.

 

For the first time, Brits will be facing having to prove they are health insured.

If people can not prove they have been in the NHS for at least the past 12 months and are not employees, they cannot get into voluntary membership of German public insurance. If they are self-employed and have been in Germany for over three months, they cannot get public insurance. If they become employees and get into German public insurance, they face backpayments- yes, they DO.

 

If they are self-employed and have either no insurance or a travel-type insurance such as Mawista, CareConcept, they cannot switch to German public insurance.

 

Above paragraph is also problematic if they want German private insurance but right now either have no insurance or a travel-type insurance. Even if they earn quite well AND are healthy- the vast majority of German private insurers will either refuse your custom or charge backpayments. In certain cases, I can help and get around the backpayments!

 

Non-EU citizens and even EU citizens - in most cases, if self-employed and have been living outside Europe  immediately prior to moving to Germany and thus not in a European country‘s public health system for at least the past 12 months- no German public insurance possible.

 

Non-EU citizens coming to Germany as freelancers/ self-employed need a residence permit/ work permit etc and must prove they have valid health insurance BUT - Catch 22 - to qualify for German private insurance, they must already prove they have a valid EXISTING residence/ work permit etc. Many German private insurers won‘t take the risk anyway because they can‘t check the creditworthiness of the client if they are new to Germany.

 

As such, they won‘t take the risk because they cannot cancel the client‘s contract for eg non-payment of the premiums... because of the legal obligation to be health insured!!

 

etc etc etc!!

 

PS. i have just moved this thread to Finance, where it belongs as a topic and where it will be read by more people maybe facing difficulties re their  health insurance situation.

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.

yep  i wasn't wanting to start discussion on who isn't insured etc.

my  point was   a) don't trust that anmeldung is enough  

and  in my case  yes  i am in 3 month time frame yes  i am employed  and have paid the nhs  so  i should be ok for public insurance but can't get it as long as i am working for a uk firm -  which to be clear is a family business so i don't want to just walk away from it.   i want to pay tax here  and i will still declare tax in uk np i understand dual tax.  i just need to get insured 

 

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55 minutes ago, lunaCH said:

My understanding is though that all of these regional procedures are still provisional until the actual official ones are issued on a national level and that the latter have not been issued as yet due to the delays in Brexit, corona and the ongoing wrangling in the transition period. :rolleyes: 

Some regions have not issued any details on registration procedures at all. I've merely been told I simply have to be a resident (which I already am owing to Brexit) and that I can leave it as late as June 2021 to get the new residence card.

Yes! We are partly in the dark here- corona has disrupted everything..🙁

By the way, I am also dealing with uninsured people who want to get insured... because of corona. I can understand that!

 

Wie gesagt, Brexit and Covid at the same time...

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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3 hours ago, Marianne013 said:

It really irks me, when people publicly boast about illegal behaviour as if it was a good thing. No-one is perfect, but I don't feel the need to tell everyone about my occasionally shitty behaviour ?!

 

I couldn't agree with you more!

 

4 hours ago, stuie123 said:

If it wasn't for brexit I would do the same but without health insurance you are not actually a resident. It is common misconception that Anmeldung is this but it is only proof of address not proof of residency. Yes yes splitting hairs but this is Germany and brexit looms. 

 

I regret to inform that this forum has been taken over by certain ignorant (and possibly malicious) posters who make "suggestions" that could have serious consequences for anyone following their suggestions. You seem to have a better understanding of Freedom of Movement than a few posters on this thread.

 

It is not splitting hairs, but you need to fulfil the requirements and I expect many freeloading Brits are going to end up with a few nasty surprises in the next few years. 

 

I would suggest you contact @PandaMunich at https://expertise.tax/en/ for a consultation on how to set up your employment contracts and then @john g. about the health insurance.

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4 hours ago, lunaCH said:

Under 100k is a very low estimate indeed simply and clearly designed to dress up the numbers. Germany has a serious problem with people not having access to proper health care because insurance has become compulsory yet at the same time the obligation is not enforced properly and lets people just flop about and slip through the system. 

A quick search pulls up far higher figures: 

 

Here they speak of at least 300'000 with up to 2'000'000 having only partial access to serviceshttps://www.br.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/leben-ohne-krankenversicherung,RonruNV 

 

Here of several hundred thousandhttps://diegesundheitsexperten.de/keine-krankenversicherung/ 

 

And here 500'000https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/menschen-ohne-krankenversicherung-bloss-nicht-krank-werden.976.de.html?dram:article_id=475593 

 

I previously read another article (can no longer find it, sorry) which stated 1'000'000, which is why I mentioned it. ;)

 

I was in no way advising it nor boasting about my partner not having had insurance for the initial months here, I was merely mentioning that it does happen. Moreover it is not illegal not to be insured.

A way around back-payments is to de-register and re-register residence here a few months later. The first sojourn would not even be looked at. :rolleyes:

Just your last two sentences. De-registering and then? So, eg, you de-register all the hassle ( and quit your flat, 02 contract, other insurances, try to change countries at a time of corona, inform the Finanzamt, have I forgotten anything?) and then you come back to Germany and still can‘t prove you have been in the NHS the past 12 months? What do you gain from that? Erm,  more hassle...

 

Best: if you are moving to Germany, get informed before you move over. If here uninsured, talk to someone in the daily fray. Starshollow, myself. Whoever. The issue will not go away. You must have health insurance to live in Germany legally.

And Germany doesn‘t do easy in this regard. Public and private insurers can both be infuriating with their rules and regulations. And interpretations of the rules ( which are often internal ). Same with the Ausländeramts!

 

And can Germany change the rules so that commissions can be paid for helping people get into public insurance? 
The insurance brokers I know on here DO get people into public health when it is possible, appropriate, „ macht Sinn „ and it costs us money and time. Karma helps as a philosophy ( and , yep , I will stick to that ) but the system is unfair.

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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6 hours ago, lunaCH said:

Can you not continue using the UK private health insurance? What type is it exactly and have you tried to see if it is still valid abroad? 

How long are you going to be resident for? If only temporarily you may not need insurance here.

luna! Wrong! The OP is in the NHS system - public insurance. The OP must have insurance in accordance with German laws. No ifs or buts!

I am a professional independent insurance broker and authorised advertiser. Contact me.
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8 hours ago, john g. said:

De-registering and then? So, eg, you de-register all the hassle ( and quit your flat, 02 contract, other insurances, try to change countries at a time of corona, inform the Finanzamt, have I forgotten anything?)

You don't need to do any of those things to de-register at the town hall. :rolleyes:

 

And again, not having health insurance is not illegal in Germany. Problematic, of course, I fully agree, but illegal - which is something totally different . it most certainly is not

If you are registered with your town hall and have your identity documents in order you are legally resident and almost certainly deemed tax resident. ;)

 

8 hours ago, john g. said:

luna! Wrong! The OP is in the NHS system - public insurance. The OP must have insurance in accordance with German laws. No ifs or buts!

When I posted that, we did not have the details the OP later gave,. ;)

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