Is "social justice" a good idea?

267 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Keleth said:

What about putting it this way..

Why was the Patriot Act (1984 writ large) introduced enabling the govt to curtail peoples freedoms because of 3000s deaths ?

Why despite nearly 150000 Covid deaths has such an act not been introduced in response whereas we have politicians and many people calling for a return to normality and that wearing a mask is trampling on peoples rights.

Money.

I know which 1 of those 2 instances should really bring more state control.

 

 

 

The response to COVID-19 has been much more severe than the response to 9/11 so I really don't know what you're talking about. After 9/11, I don't remember people being told not to leave their houses (or face a fine) for two months like the people of Spain and Italy were. The difference in perception and levels of criticism boils down to anti-Americanism. Many on the left were delighted to see America attacked in 2001 and therefore got angry at the Americans' temerity to try to prevent further attacks. Imagine having to go through security checks at the airport and having to fill out a form on the plane before landing in America! The horror!

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39 minutes ago, kiplette said:

Covid is portrayed as a silent killer which lurks in every social interaction, so it's more immediate, personal and is common to all. This is obviously not actually true...

Why is this not true? Having had the virus with no idea how or where I got it, and taken three months to get back to speed, it certainly is not obvious to me. And I know several people it finished off altogether. Like dead. For ever. People only seem to get the seriousness of this thing when it is too late. I was one of them.

 

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57 minutes ago, optimista said:

Most people are aware that it is in their own interests to suffer the disadvantages of masks, confinement, travel restrictions, etc. If these are not enforced by the state, many people will not comply. Which is why I find the UK governments "urging" and "advising" so ineffectual.

 

I was shocked at the fines for not observing confinement measures to the letter or now wearing masks. But in retrospect, I can see it unfortunately has to be this way. We humans are so bad at organising ourselves and altruistic personal discipline is generally in such short supply.

 

It's always easy to sit on the side-lines and scoff and criticise.

 

Fines for not observing confinement measures or not wearing masks, yet real crimes often go unpunished. 

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Yes, we are feeble, imperfect creatures living in an imperfect society and an imperfect state. Life is not fair. That is reality.

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6 minutes ago, optimista said:

Yes, we are feeble, imperfect creatures living in an imperfect society and an imperfect state. Life is not fair. That is reality.

 

That's not the sort of unfairness that I can accept.

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52 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

 Alas, the response in other countries (including Ireland) to the COVID-19 measures has been similar so maybe we're not that different after all.

 

Or maybe those other countries also see the sense in taking these measures with COVID-19

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1 hour ago, GerardB said:

It's important to question authority.

 

1 hour ago, GerardB said:

If by "protesters in Portland", you're referring to the anarchist thugs who've been rampaging through the streets of that city recently, turning it into a lawless hellhole

 

For those of you playing at home, see if you can spot the contradiction.

 

Likewise, this poster states that governments should stay out of people's lives as much as possible, except where your uterus is involved.

 

Obvious something is obvious.

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8 minutes ago, Tap said:

 

Or maybe those other countries also see the sense in taking these measures with COVID-19

 

Or they've had the beejaysus frightened out of them by media and governments worldwide singing from the same hymn sheet.

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8 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

 

 

For those of you playing at home, see if you can spot the contradiction.

 

Likewise, this poster states that governments should stay out of people's lives as much as possible, except where your uterus is involved.

 

Obvious something is obvious.

^^^^

 

3 hours ago, AlexTr said:

dictator.jpg

 

2 hours ago, GerardB said:

 

Sorry you've lost me. What secret police are we talking about here?

 

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9 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

 

 

For those of you playing at home, see if you can spot the contradiction.

 

Likewise, this poster states that governments should stay out of people's lives as much as possible, except where your uterus is involved.

 

Obvious something is obvious.

 

I pity people whose moral compass is so messed up that they think the deliberate killing of millions of unborn children every year is morally okay but people who don't observe Orwellian social distancing rules, or who have the temerity to have a beer in a pub or even go on holiday have something to apologise for. Unfortunately of course, in Toytown one deals with a a lot of brainwashed Americans who've clearly taken one side in the culture wars and are simply incapable of understanding nuance.

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15 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

Or they've had the beejaysus frightened out of them by media and governments worldwide singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

With the media, you have a point, but with governments, I don't think so.  We can't get governments to agree on the smallest of issues generally, but now they're singing from the same hymn sheet, that doesn't make sense.

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48 minutes ago, Tap said:

 

With the media, you have a point, but with governments, I don't think so.  We can't get governments to agree on the smallest of issues generally, but now they're singing from the same hymn sheet, that doesn't make sense.

 

On corona, they are most definitely singing from the same hymn sheet.

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8 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

On corona, they are most definitely singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

Yes, they are, but you have to ask yourself why they're taking this action. They obviously realise the danger to their people and need to react, which most are doing as best they can.

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1 hour ago, GerardB said:

That's not the sort of unfairness that I can accept.

Excellent. May you never mellow with age. Keep fighting.

On the dreadful business of abortion, you can be pro-choice without thinking it is morally o.k. Back to rocks and hard places and cruel reality. I doubt it is ever a joy or taken lightly. The least of two evils may be abortion in a sterile environment performed by trained professionals. I really do not think any man is in a position to opine that a woman should be forced to give birth to an unwanted child, never having been through the process of pregnancy and childbirth himself. I really don't.

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2 hours ago, optimista said:

Why is this not true?

 Just the 'lurks in every social interaction' part - there are plenty of safe interactions, just as there are absolutely unsafe ones. 

Back when you got it, I don't think most people had a handle on their interactions like they do now. I could tell you exactly who I have stood closer than 2 meters to in the last 3 months. In March, not so much. 

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39 minutes ago, optimista said:

Excellent. May you never mellow with age. Keep fighting.

On the dreadful business of abortion, you can be pro-choice without thinking it is morally o.k. Back to rocks and hard places and cruel reality. I doubt it is ever a joy or taken lightly. The least of two evils may be abortion in a sterile environment performed by trained professionals. I really do not think any man is in a position to opine that a woman should be forced to give birth to an unwanted child, never having been through the process of pregnancy and childbirth himself. I really don't.

 

I agree with you that a person can be "pro-choice" while still finding abortion to be morally wrong. But here's the problem with that argument: the figures for abortion are sky high in all countries where it is legal, which suggests that women (and men) aren't being very responsible when it comes to using contraception or exercising their "right" under the law to a termination. In the UK, around 200,000 abortions are performed every year (twice the German figure!), with over one-third of the women being return "customers". In a country with good (perhaps even free?) access to contraception, I find that hard to comprehend or stomach. And please don't give me the argument about rape, the health of the mother, etc. as I recently saw a statistic that such cases account for around 4% of abortions in Germany (I'm sure it's similar in other countries).

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57 minutes ago, Tap said:

 

Yes, they are, but you have to ask yourself why they're taking this action. They obviously realise the danger to their people and need to react, which most are doing as best they can.

 

Yes, but let's hope they don't get a taste for authoritarianism while they're at it. When I hear government officials in Germany, Ireland or elsewhere talking about measures to slow the spread of the coronavirus, I don't sense any reticence on their part. What I mean by that is they don't seem to acknowledge how draconian the measures are and how they might affect people's economic and psychological wellbeing. That bothers me.

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5 hours ago, GerardB said:

 government styles and curbs on people's freedoms,

that's what they do.

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7 minutes ago, catjones said:

that's what they do.

 

That's what authoritarian, illiberal governments do. I always thought Western governments were liberal and democratic or was that just always a load of nonsense?

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