Is "social justice" a good idea?

267 posts in this topic

55 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

Sorry you've lost me. What secret police are we talking about here?

I presume she`s talking about the people in unmarked vans and unmarked uniforms taking protestors off the street in Portland.

That pretty much fits the definition.

28 minutes ago, kiplette said:

Would you honestly have preferred the hospitals to be overrun with covid patients to the point where accident and emergency were no longer available?

Yes he would as long as he could go to the pub.His opinion is that those who could die from it should isolate themselves and it is not up to other people to protect them.

He doesn`t even think about overrunning of the health service or medical people etc etc they`re not important,his social life overrides everything.

19 minutes ago, GerardB said:

I acknowledge the virus is real and (can be) dangerous but I am still more concerned about the introduction of authoritarian government styles and curbs on people's freedoms, not to mention the destruction of the economy and hard-working people being made dependent on state support through no fault of their own. It's important to question authority.

Yet you want the state to mandate what a woman can do with her own body ?

13 minutes ago, GerardB said:

Really? Why? I don't need any justification to question the government or the state.

Not to question it no,power and authority should always be questioned.

However sometimes the state as such does actually do the right thing.

 

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16 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

Really? Why? I don't need any justification to question the government or the state.

 

No, you don't. However, as foreigners neither of us has the power to vote or influence German government decisions.

 

Therefore, if you don't like how things work here and don't agree with the German social contract, your best option is to either move to a country whose laws you feel you could follow or move back home where you have the power to change things.

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Governments are between a rock and a hard place on Covid. Damned if they do, damned if they don't, and having to walk a tight rope blindfolded. But I am disappointed at the apparent lack of science and common sense applied in some quarters. It is not reassuring. And should be questioned. Yes, Spain for example will suffer economically without the tourist industry. But depriving North Europeans of a bit of sun (and some undesirables unworthy of export of a week of debauchery) is surely worth sacrificing to protect the health of the majority of its population?

 

Covid has certainly brought the state right into our daily lives whereas before, many (average Joe tabloid readers) were pretty vague, if not totally unconscious and ignorant about what The State actually is and does.

 

Tap's comments about her friend resonate. If it doesn't kill you, Covid can cripple you - temporarily at least. It's Russian Roulette. Who knows where we will be in a year's time?

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13 minutes ago, jeba said:

While it´s not forbidden it won´t earn any sympathy points. It will merely make you a querulant.

 

I remember after the terrorist attacks o 11 September 2001 people accusing the US of being a police state simply because they tightened up on security after the attacks. These measures only affected people flying to the US. The COVID-19 measures, on the other hand, have affected pretty much everyone all over the world and the criticism seems much more muted. I find that odd.

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Most people are aware that it is in their own interests to suffer the disadvantages of masks, confinement, travel restrictions, etc. If these are not enforced by the state, many people will not comply. Which is why I find the UK governments "urging" and "advising" so ineffectual.

 

I was shocked at the fines for not observing confinement measures to the letter or now wearing masks. But in retrospect, I can see it unfortunately has to be this way. We humans are so bad at organising ourselves and altruistic personal discipline is generally in such short supply.

 

It's always easy to sit on the side-lines and scoff and criticise.

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@Keleth: If by "protesters in Portland", you're referring to the anarchist thugs who've been rampaging through the streets of that city recently, turning it into a lawless hellhole, I hadn't heard about them being picked up in vans. If it's true, I don't agree with it.By the way, they're also risking spreading COVID-19 with their protests. I thought that would bother you, seeing as you're so concerned about the virus and its transmission.

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11 minutes ago, optimista said:

Covid has certainly brought the state right into our daily lives whereas before, many (average Joe tabloid readers) were pretty vague, if not totally unconscious and ignorant about what The State actually is and does.

 

The fact that many people didn't notice the state before COVID-19 is actually a good thing. In the DDR and other authoritarian regimes, people were aware of the state every day and they eventually got tired of it. I don't understand the condescending reference to "average Joe tabloid readers".

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24 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

I didn't mean to insult anyone, sorry.

 

Fair play!

 

24 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

Everyone views this issue differently but my take on it is as follows: I acknowledge the virus is real and (can be) dangerous but I am still more concerned about the introduction of authoritarian government styles and curbs on people's freedoms, not to mention the destruction of the economy and hard-working people being made dependent on state support through no fault of their own. It's important to question authority.

 

You come from a reactive society, when the Irish government makes an unpopular decision, the first question from most people is usually "why" and they shout it loudly.  Irish people question everything, and that's good, in many ways.  Germans are not like that, they're a different people and they make their feelings known in other ways, like the ballot box, as we saw in the last election.  I don't think the people are blindly following the government, they see the logic in what they're doing, so it's ok for them.

 

You don't have to like it, or agree with everything, but to live here, you need to find a way to deal with it  That goes for any country you chose to live in. 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, engelchen said:

 

No, you don't. However, as foreigners neither of us has the power to vote or influence German government decisions.

 

Therefore, if you don't like how things work here and don't agree with the German social contract, your best option is to either move to a country whose laws you feel you could follow or move back home where you have the power to change things.

 

What's this "social contract" everyone keeps banging on about here? It sounds as if Germany is some sort of socialist paradise (a contradiction in terms to me but not to many others). Where is this contract laid down in writing so that I can read about it? And if said contract is so great, why do I see people everyday here looking through rubbish bins for bottles to collect and make a few measly cents for themselves?

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3 minutes ago, Tap said:

I don't think the people are blindly following the government, they see the logic in what they're doing, so it's ok for them.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think Germans care too much about the logic (or otherwise) of the measures. Their history shows that they are a compliant people with a frightening tendency towards groupthink. Alas, the response in other countries (including Ireland) to the COVID-19 measures has been similar so maybe we're not that different after all.

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18 minutes ago, GerardB said:

I remember after the terrorist attacks o 11 September 2001 people accusing the US of being a police state simply because they tightened up on security after the attacks. These measures only affected people flying to the US. The COVID-19 measures, on the other hand, have affected pretty much everyone all over the world and the criticism seems much more muted. I find that odd.

 

The terrorist threat is a bit removed, I think - most people imagine that it is someone else's problem.

 

Covid is portrayed as a silent killer which lurks in every social interaction, so it's more immediate, personal and is common to all. This is obviously not actually true, but I think that's essentially why there's a big difference.

 

Also, the USA funded NorAid for decades, and then terrorism strikes them and is suddenly bad? The buggers. That is not a personal statement of opinion about the Irish Question, but rather a musing on double standards. 

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7 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

What's this "social contract" everyone keeps banging on about here? It sounds as if Germany is some sort of socialist paradise (a contradiction in terms to me but not to many others). Where is this contract laid down in writing so that I can read about it? And if said contract is so great, why do I see people everyday here looking through rubbish bins for bottles to collect and make a few measly cents for themselves?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

17 minutes ago, GerardB said:

If by "protesters in Portland", you're referring to the anarchist thugs who've been rampaging through the streets of that city recently, turning it into a lawless hellhole,

NM what they have done there is absolutely no reason for them to be picked up by unmarked people.

Police,military etc etc are other options,there is absolutely no reason for them to be picked up by unmarked men.

That is exactly how secret police start,when the authority has what they perceive to be a problem just send in the secret police.

5 minutes ago, GerardB said:

Their history shows that they are a compliant people with a frightening tendency towards groupthink

This I agree with totally.

 

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1 minute ago, kiplette said:

 

The terrorist threat is a bit removed, I think - most people imagine that it is someone else's problem.

 

Covid is portrayed as a silent killer which lurks in every social interaction, so it's more immediate, personal and is common to all. This is obviously not actually true, but I think that's essentially why there's a big difference.

 

Also, the USA funded NorAid for decades, and then terrorism strikes them and is suddenly bad? The buggers. That is not a personal statement of opinion about the Irish Question, but rather a musing on double standards. 

 

I was aware that gullible Irish-Americans funded NorAid but the US government? Really?

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2 minutes ago, kiplette said:

Also, the USA funded NorAid for decades, and then terrorism strikes them and is suddenly bad? The buggers. That is not a personal statement of opinion about the Irish Question, but rather a musing on double standards. 

And many of them used a lot of the same training camps so some of their own money went to help fund the very terrorists who attacked them.

 

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21 minutes ago, GerardB said:

The fact that many people didn't notice the state before COVID-19 is actually a good thing.

Yes, up to a point. But how well informed is Joe public ? My reference to tabloid readers was just a neutral description. You perceive it to be condescending. Communication is difficult, indeed. The mission of the BBC and by extension the press used to be to inform and educate. Meantime entertainment has got the upper hand. In the UK even the broadsheets have become rags with little real information and debate. The populace is entertained but surely not made knowledgeable. Result?

 

It is easy to manipulate the masses, German or otherwise. Groupthink is universal. I do agree Germans tend to keep their head down and keep stumm. A result of hard experience.

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2 minutes ago, GerardB said:

I was aware that gullible Irish-Americans funded NorAid but the US government? Really?

 

Sorry, not the government outright, but there was a sense that they looked the other way and were not remotely diligent in preventative measures.

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3 minutes ago, Keleth said:

And many of them used a lot of the same training camps so some of their own money went to help fund the very terrorists who attacked them.

 

 

That's a separate issue. My point is where are all the civil liberties advocates – who were so vocal in their criticism of the US government's attempts to prevent further terrorist attacks on US soil in they years following 9/11 – defending citizens' freedoms in the context of COVID-19?

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8 minutes ago, optimista said:

 

It is easy to manipulate the masses, German or otherwise. Groupthink is universal. I do agree Germans tend to keep their head down and keep stumm. A result of hard experience.

 

Yet they seem convinced that their country is some sort of model of "liberal democracy". Without challenges to authority and diversity of opinion, how can any country call itself that?

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7 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

That's a separate issue. My point is where are all the civil liberties advocates – who were so vocal in their criticism of the US government's attempts to prevent further terrorist attacks on US soil in they years following 9/11 – defending citizens' freedoms in the context of COVID-19?

What about putting it this way..

Why was the Patriot Act (1984 writ large) introduced enabling the govt to curtail peoples freedoms because of 3000s deaths ?

Why despite nearly 150000 Covid deaths has such an act not been introduced in response whereas we have politicians and many people calling for a return to normality and that wearing a mask is trampling on peoples rights.

Money.

I know which 1 of those 2 instances should really bring more state control.

 

 

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