Is "social justice" a good idea?

267 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, GerardB said:

 

I can well imagine that the majority of Germans are in favour of keeping the coronavirus restrictions in place - or even making them stricter - but that's because the Germans have an authoritarian streak and like nothing more than being told what to do by the state. 

Well, I live in Cyprus (where the lockdown as well as the economic consequences were much harsher) and if that´s the only explanation Cypriots also must have an authoritarian streak and like being told what to do by the state. But maybe there are other explanations as well?

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The generally I-do-what-I-want  Cretans have also been unusually “law-abiding “ re corona/ lockdown. Partly no choice - they had to send an SMS to the authorities and wait for permission to leave home.

Didn’t have the Emergency Movement Form filled in if stopped by the police? 150 euro fine per person.

A shopkeeper in town let ONE friend/ client in when it was not yet legal to open as a non-essential business. She was fined 5,000 euros.

Anyway, who would want to end up in a “ dangerous , ill-equipped hospital “ ? 

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4 hours ago, jeba said:

Well, I live in Cyprus (where the lockdown as well as the economic consequences were much harsher) and if that´s the only explanation Cypriots also must have an authoritarian streak and like being told what to do by the state. But maybe there are other explanations as well?

 

You're right, sorry. In response to the coronavirus, the whole world, not just Germany, has gone authoritarian and crazy. Doesn't make the measures any more palatable in my view.

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4 hours ago, john g. said:

The generally I-do-what-I-want  Cretans have also been unusually “law-abiding “ re corona/ lockdown. Partly no choice - they had to send an SMS to the authorities and wait for permission to leave home.

Didn’t have the Emergency Movement Form filled in if stopped by the police? 150 euro fine per person.

A shopkeeper in town let ONE friend/ client in when it was not yet legal to open as a non-essential business. She was fined 5,000 euros.

Anyway, who would want to end up in a “ dangerous , ill-equipped hospital “ ? 

 

I find those kind of measures positively Orwellian. Just one year ago, people would have found these kind of measures unimaginable and now everybody just accepts them. I find that quite worrying.

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13 minutes ago, GerardB said:

Just one year ago, people would have found these kind of measures unimaginable and now everybody just accepts them.

Because the alternative is even worse. Are you aware that it´s not a nice way to die from Covid and that it may well cause long-term health problems?

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2 hours ago, jeba said:

Because the alternative is even worse. Are you aware that it´s not a nice way to die from Covid and that it may well cause long-term health problems?

 

Yes, death is a long term health problem! I think you should have written or not and.:lol:

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10 hours ago, GerardB said:

being told what to do by the state. 

 

that's what states do.

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8 hours ago, GerardB said:

 

I find those kind of measures positively Orwellian. Just one year ago, people would have found these kind of measures unimaginable and now everybody just accepts them. I find that quite worrying.

 

Here is a fair question to ask:   when will the level of COVID risk be low enough to open fully and lift the requirements on masks and gatherings?

 

Looking at relative risks of automobile accidents, insulin resistance, mass public protests, and the annual flu, just to name a few, there should be some benchmarks which would trigger an ease of restrictions.  

 

If there aren't, that should be troublesome.  

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8 hours ago, catjones said:

 

that's what states do.

 

Yes, but they should keep it to a minimum.

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48 minutes ago, AlexTr said:

dictator.jpg

 

Sorry you've lost me. What secret police are we talking about here?

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The alternative was a non-functional health system and the loss of medical staff. 

 

It happened in Italy, it happened in Spain.

 

The recovery here will be much quicker.

 

It went OK in Germany because people are used to a strong social contract. It is not that complicated, and not that bad.

 

People who complain because they lost their livelihoods have an absolute right to suggest that the measures were too strict, people who complain because they couldn't go to the pub and mistakenly believed that this meant they couldn't leave the house merely show themselves as sociopaths. And not useful ones.

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@kiplette: Aren't you a good little girl doing what Merkel and Co. tell you and abiding by Germany's wonderful "social(ist) contract". The German governments of the Third Reich and the DDR would have loved you.

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Not really. 

 

I have not been asked to do anything amoral, or report others for not following the requirements. The one thing locally I found absolutely reprehensible was the closure of the Tafel, and we were able to support an alternative version of that to mitigate the ensuing suffering. There are other aspects of the handling of the pandemic which I would not have personally chosen, but government is rarely perfect in anyone's eyes.

 

Anyone who pays taxes here is furthering the social democracy of Germany. If this is distasteful, why stay? 

 

Would you honestly have preferred the hospitals to be overrun with covid patients to the point where accident and emergency were no longer available? If so, why not save your tax euros and go live somewhere less organised? This is an expensive place to live if the social contract is something you find distasteful.

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6 minutes ago, GerardB said:

@kiplette: Aren't you a good little girl doing what Merkel and Co. tell you and abiding by Germany's wonderful "social(ist) contract". The German governments of the Third Reich and the DDR would have loved you.

 

Why do you feel the need to insult someone you don't agree with?

 

When this all started with the masks, I wasn't convinced it would help, but I did some research myself and found it logical to ask people to try and protect each other, and it seems to be working, so well done the government on this, because I don't always agree with them.

 

Something that hasn't been publicised greatly is the number of people who have recovered from the virus, but have been left with life changing illnesses.  I, unfortunately, know one such person, and thrilled as I am that he has survived, I'm more than horrified at what it's done to him.  It's not only death we need to be afraid of, but what this virus can do to us if we do catch it.

 

There is still a lot to be learned about this, and until the experts know more, we need to find a way to reduce the risk of catching it. If that means wearing a mask when in an enclosed area with other people, so be it, it's a small price to pay.

 

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6 minutes ago, kiplette said:

Not really. 

 

I have not been asked to do anything amoral, or report others for not following the requirements. The one thing locally I found absolutely reprehensible was the closure of the Tafel, and we were able to support an alternative version of that to mitigate the ensuing suffering. There are other aspects of the handling of the pandemic which I would not have personally chosen, but government is rarely perfect in anyone's eyes.

 

Anyone who pays taxes here is furthering the social democracy of Germany. If this is distasteful, why stay? 

 

Would you honestly have preferred the hospitals to be overrun with covid patients to the point where accident and emergency were no longer available? If so, why not save your tax euros and go live somewhere less organised? This is an expensive place to live if the social contract is something you find distasteful.

 

I take your points. I just find the German moralising on many issues (including COVID-19) and their subservience to government and the state to be a bit nauseating sometimes. I'm only here because I chose a line of work where there are more jobs here than back home.

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5 minutes ago, Tap said:

 

Why do you feel the need to insult someone you don't agree with?

 

When this all started with the masks, I wasn't convinced it would help, but I did some research myself and found it logical to ask people to try and protect each other, and it seems to be working, so well done the government on this, because I don't always agree with them.

 

Something that hasn't been publicised greatly is the number of people who have recovered from the virus, but have been left with life changing illnesses.  I, unfortunately, know one such person, and thrilled as I am that he has survived, I'm more than horrified at what it's done to him.  It's not only death we need to be afraid of, but what this virus can do to us if we do catch it.

 

There is still a lot to be learned about this, and until the experts know more, we need to find a way to reduce the risk of catching it. If that means wearing a mask when in an enclosed area with other people, so be it, it's a small price to pay.

 

 

I didn't mean to insult anyone, sorry. Everyone views this issue differently but my take on it is as follows: I acknowledge the virus is real and (can be) dangerous but I am still more concerned about the introduction of authoritarian government styles and curbs on people's freedoms, not to mention the destruction of the economy and hard-working people being made dependent on state support through no fault of their own. It's important to question authority.

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5 minutes ago, GerardB said:

It's important to question authority.

But not just for the sake of questioning it.

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1 minute ago, jeba said:

But not just for the sake of questioning it.

 

Really? Why? I don't need any justification to question the government or the state.

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While it´s not forbidden it won´t earn any sympathy points. It will merely make you a querulant.

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