Is "social justice" a good idea?

267 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, catjones said:

 

since  "Demographic information examples include: age, race, ethnicity, gender, marital status, income, education, and employment." just which of these are you able to regularly discern?

 

 

 

 I was trying to be diplomatic and to avoid being labelled "racist" by some of the people on this forum who like doing that. The guys I see spitting on the street are usually Roma.

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Spitting is common in many cultures and eg the Chinese Govt have been trying to persuade the growing number of Chinese tourists worldwide NOT to spit. 
Westerners using handkerchiefs to wipe their noses and then putting them back in their pockets are regarded as disgusting in many eg Asian cultures.

 

An interesting view from India: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-edit-page/spitting-in-the-coronavirus-era-how-europe-overcame-the-urge-to-spit-and-why-india-might-just-succeed-now/

 

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On 7/31/2020, 5:10:26, J0ker said:

After the plague life did attempt to get back to normal albeit after 1348 many countries needed a century or two to fully recover economically and demographically since it kept coming back. However there was no concept of "social distancing" indefinitely.

 

Keleth:

 

 

Wait I missed this post.

How do you from "It will never get back to normal as we used to know it unless there is a vaccine."

take the meaning that social distancing will go on forever or 10-20 years ?

Talk about someone willfully misrepresenting something someone said.

 

So answer it this time..

Do you think that without a vaccine or herd immunity or the virus mutating or dying out we are going to go back to how it was a year ago ie normal.

Will you willingly go and stand in a crowd of thousands without a mask with people being in virtual constant contact with people while coughing,sweating etc on each other ?

Would you sit on a plane without a mask etc if the virus is running rampant ?

Would you do many of the things you used to do ?

 

You mention the plague and Spanish flu as examples but a big part of why it went back to normal was because the disease died out.

 

22 hours ago, J0ker said:

the Spanish flu had a much higher mortality rate than Corona but people still didn't socially distance after it was over.

Because after the 3rd wave it died out ffs.

You honestly believe the world would be as we knew it if it was still rampant without a cure or vaccine ?

22 hours ago, J0ker said:

Forgive my ignorance but where did you read that people stopped spitting due to the Spanish flu?

Socially unacceptable does not mean everyone stopped.

22 hours ago, J0ker said:

Which groundbreaking 14th century medical advances are you talking about?

The fact the medical profession stopped concentrating on theorising on what caused illness (often attributed to doing something against god or the movement of the planets) and concentrated on how to actually cure illness.I`d say that`s a pretty big  advance.

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, john g. said:

Rich people can also die against their will, Keleth.

Thanks for that as I didn`t realise that.

Where the fuck did I mention anyone dying be they rich or poor ?

22 hours ago, john g. said:

What is true - reforms can happen politically WHEN it affects privileged people

Why do you think Trump has started to wear a mask.

 

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“ The rich will get richer whatever the virus does and the poorer will get poorer “ ( or similar statement of yours yesterday). Some - yes. Some will die.

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1 hour ago, Keleth said:

Thanks for that as I didn`t realise that.

Where the fuck did I mention anyone dying be they rich or poor ?

Why do you think Trump has started to wear a mask.

 

I am not sure that is an example of reform when a psychopathic, narcissistic President wears a mask. I was thinking more along the lines of deep reform- my thoughts were related to Victorian times in Britain re cholera, sewerage, TB- whatever.. ie even the powerful were affected. Their kids and friends could have been victims. And maybe were. So laws ( not Twitter reactions ) were implemented.

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5 minutes ago, john g. said:

I am not sure that is an example of reform when a President wears a mask. I was thinking more along the lines of deep reform- my thoughts were related to Victorian times in Britain re cholera, sewerage, TB- whatever.. ie even the powerful were affected. Their kids and friends could have been victims. And maybe were. So laws ( not Twitter reactions ) were implemented.

Not an example of reform but an example of when one of the elite who is so out of touch with anything outside of his inner circle realises that what he has been railing against may hit him as he`s seen it happen to other elites.

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Basically, I agree with you, Keleth. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. 
Same with small- minded people, though , everywhere. And not only elites. The kind of person who bullies a neighbour, chains a dog against a tree in 35 degrees so the dog can’t move. The co-worker who mobs you. The bully who mugs an old person. Same difference. Just different levels of abuse of power. And just give them just an ounce of more power.

 

Abuse is not restricted to elites. Abuse is everywhere. 

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3 hours ago, GerardB said:

 I was trying to be diplomatic and to avoid being labelled "racist" by some of the people on this forum who like doing that. The guys I see spitting on the street are usually Roma.

 

Don't worry, you've already been called a racist...because you are a racist.  You must have some magical ability to discern, identify and label ethnic groups.  Were you born with this ability or were you taught by your parents?  It's not taught in school, but I know the nazi's used that same ability to attempt to eradicate the Romani people.  They could have used your help.

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Plenty of spitting here. Brit tourists are better at vomiting. The youngsters.

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14 hours ago, catjones said:

 

since  "Demographic information examples include: age, race, ethnicity, gender, marital status, income, education, and employment." just which of these are you able to regularly discern?

 

 

 

 

The most important one is missing here: social origin aka class

 

Quote

When it comes to diversity, it is usually about nationality, gender and ethnicity. The journalist Houssam Hamade notices a huge blind spot here: classism, i.e. discrimination based on social origin.

Google "Diversity" plus "BMW", "Daimler", "Amazon" or any other major corporation. All of them are committed to diversity. And at least in the humanities, almost every call for applications ends with the remark that women or people with a migration background are encouraged to apply.

And yet, most editorial offices and agencies are largely run by white men. The situation is even worse in the executive floors of German business, 90 percent of which are made up of West German men.
Poor and workers are portrayed negatively

Nevertheless, it is a good thing to uphold diversity as an ideal. At least it makes it clear that we will not live in an open society for a long time yet. Unfortunately, the so widespread demand for diversity has a huge blind spot: classism, i.e. discrimination based on social origin.
Classism and racism are related

Especially the classism against the poor is amazingly similar to racism. The right-wing bestseller author Thilo Sarrazin, for example, attaches similar attributions to Arab or Turkish migrants as people who receive Hartz IV. He describes them as lazy subsidy recipients who lack the drive to give birth to too many children and bring Germany to its ruin.

Classism and racism are historically closely related ideologies. Already in 1438 a Spanish priest described different "races", which today are rather understood as classes: The "common race of peasant sons" and the "good race" of knights, born for higher tasks, can be read in "Racism in the pre-modern age" by Max Sebastián Hering Torres.
Education system reinforces class differences

The sociologist Aladin El-Mafaalani shows in his new book "Myth of Education" that class differences are not compensated for by the German education system, but rather are reinforced. Instead of acknowledging the fact that certain classes have problems in the education system because of their living conditions, these problems are attributed solely to the failure of the individuals themselves.

For a schoolgirl whose mother died, whose father is an alcoholic and who therefore also has to look after her younger siblings, it is a huge achievement to be mediocre at school.
Workers' children lack relationships

People with civic socialisation are much better supported. This is helped by the elevated language code of the parents, who can also help more competently with homework, who can pay for tutoring and books and trays, which provide a more stable, because financially secure, environment.

Working-class children usually lack the relationships, habitus and self-confidence that are so important for academic and professional success. Seen in this light, social background explains more than a migration background. Those who come from a migrant academic background have few problems in the German school system, says El-Mafaalani.
Diversity should take social background into account

The problem is also reflected in the statistics: Out of 100 children from non-academic families, only 27 take up studies, although twice as many pass the Abitur. By contrast, 79 of 100 children from academic families go on to study, which is unwise from an economic point of view because it means that talents wither away. But above all it is unfair. Social background should become a central part of the struggle for diversity.

The Berlin anti-discrimination law, which recently recognized this ground of discrimination, is a symbolic step in this direction. We should not forget that poverty and inequality are the main cause of classism, not the wrong attitudes of individuals.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/klassismus-die-uebersehene-diskriminierungsform.1005.de.html?dram:article_id=481290&utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-de-DE

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On 31/07/2020, 10:33:05, J0ker said:

Expecting people to socially distance indefinitely is contrary to human nature and such measures will collapse sooner or later.

Some people weren't even doing it properly or at all during the months when cases were high and special measures were in place. It's very easy to 'forget' or go about your business as usual. It's very easy in the supermarket not to wait for the little old lady to finish looking at the items you want to look at and move away, but rather barge up to her to grab what you want. Same goes at the checkout. A lot of people have already forgotten it seems, to keep their distance and you find yourself with a trolley up your exhaust. And then there's the next person coming right up close to pack their shopping up whilst you are still packing yours having waited patiently yourself for the previous person to pack theirs. 

It's all speed and greed nowadays - and so many people just don't care. They know who they are. 

Some of the measures should become permanent to slow society down.

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14 hours ago, catjones said:

 

Don't worry, you've already been called a racist...because you are a racist.  You must have some magical ability to discern, identify and label ethnic groups.  Were you born with this ability or were you taught by your parents?  It's not taught in school, but I know the nazi's used that same ability to attempt to eradicate the Romani people.  They could have used your help.

 

I don't appreciate being called a "racist" by someone who doesn't know me. As an Irishman, I especially resent being labelled a racist by a Brit, given the appalling racism and discrimination meted out by the Brits to the Irish over the centuries, both in Ireland and Britain. 

 

Yes, I can identify certain ethnic groups quite easily. I'm not always right of course but only the most ignorant, PC moron would suggest that people of different ethnicities all look the same and are indistinguishable from one another. And to suggest that because I mentioned that I've seen some Roma men spitting on the street means that I in some way support the "eradication" of the Roma is bordering on defamation.

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@GerardB cry me a fucking river.

 

I, and my parents, and their parents, and their parents, and their parents, were ALL born in the United States of America, yet YOU decided Africa would be a better place for me than being here and mixing up with Europeans.

 

You're trash.

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2 minutes ago, dessa_dangerous said:

@GerardB cry me a fucking river.

 

I, and my parents, and their parents, and their parents, were ALL born in the United States of America, yet YOU decided Africa would be a better place for me than being here and mixing up with Europeans.

 

You're trash.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about. I never said that. Furthermore, you're a bully for calling me "trash".

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32 minutes ago, dessa_dangerous said:

1. yes, you do

2. yes, you did

3. I don't care.  Go fuck yourself.

 

You're so angry! Have you ever considered therapy?

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1 minute ago, AlexTr said:

People who react appropriately do not require therapy. 

People who lose their shit and scream FASCISM because they have to wear a mask and can't go to the pub for a drink probably do.

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3 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

People who lose their shit and scream FASCISM because they have to wear a mask and can't go to the pub for a drink probably do.

 

Well, there is so much to unpack there. The inability to be alone indicates self-loathing and/or an unsatisfactory internal life. The focus on drinking indicates addiction.  The refusal to mask is possible narcissism.

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