Is "social justice" a good idea?

267 posts in this topic

37 minutes ago, J0ker said:

You're talking semantics.  The point is that these two diseases had a higher mortality rate than Corona but life still went on.  Expecting people to socially distance indefinitely is contrary to human nature and such measures will collapse sooner or later.

 

Not only that, the phrase "social distancing" itself is Orwellian, as if governments want to make people isolated and easier to control or something.

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5 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

That's ridiculous. I can't understand how the Germans accept that. It's probably the only country in the world where the right to asylum is contained in the constitution.

The reason lies in Germany´s history. There were many Nazi-opponents who struggled to get asylum abroad or were even redelivered to Hitler´s Germany. So the fathers of the basic law wanted to be better tha that. Also note that the Basic law wasn´t called a constitution since it was only supposed to be preliminary solution (until reunification which they thought to be imminent). Apart from that it´s not a blank right to asylum but only for those fleeing from political prosecution, not from poverty or war.

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

The reason lies in Germany´s history. There were many Nazi-opponents who struggled to get asylum abroad or were even redelivered to Hitler´s Germany. So the fathers of the basic law wanted to be better tha that. Also note that the Basic law wasn´t called a constitution since it was only supposed to be preliminary solution (until reunification which they thought to be imminent). Apart from that it´s not a blank right to asylum but only for those fleeing from political prosecution, not from poverty or war.

 

But nowadays it is being mainly used by those fleeing wars and poverty (as opposed to political persecution), it is not? Either way, I don't consider it be "zeitgemäß". By all means, admit some refugees but having it enshrined in the constitution makes it impossible to get a grip on the numbers. After all, all the applications for asylum have be heard, no matter how spurious many of them turn out to be.

 

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But the right to seek asylum is also enshrined in the UN Declaration of Human Rights of 1948, Gerard.

 

That doesn‘t ( for me ) mean that every asylum seeker is legitimate. Many, even most , ARE -if fleeing from war zones, persecution etc.

But others from non-war zones are just trying to look for a better life, which I fully understand, but are not bona fide asylum seekers.

 

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1 hour ago, GerardB said:

 

That's ridiculous. I can't understand how the Germans accept that. It's probably the only country in the world where the right to asylum is contained in the constitution.

 

It's not like that. The article was essentially without any limitations in the 90ties and was later changed and restriction were introduced. The only thing you can't do is abolish the right completely.

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1 hour ago, GerardB said:

But nowadays it is being mainly used by those fleeing wars and poverty (as opposed to political persecution), it is not?

Yes, but that´s not a problem of said right enshrined in the basic law. They are permitted to stay for other reasons (like UN conventions).

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4 hours ago, J0ker said:

You're talking semantics.  The point is that these two diseases had a higher mortality rate than Corona but life still went on.  Expecting people to socially distance indefinitely is contrary to human nature and such measures will collapse sooner or later.

I don't think life went on as normal during the plague, from memory of reports from the time I believe the rich fled to the countryside, often taking the disease with them, while those left in the cities with infections in their households were not allowed out on pain of death. Mass graves and burning of the dead was common, it also heralded the end of serfdom and many other social and economic changes in Europe.

I don't think anyone is proposing social distancing should go on indefinitely or do you have information to that effect?

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22 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

I don't think anyone is proposing social distancing should go on indefinitely or do you have information to that effect?

 

You do realize who you're asking, don't you?

 

He isn't here to provide information. He and the others are here to promote the idea that wearing a mask when out shopping is tantamount to depriving you of your basic human rights.

 

There's no arguing with these people, because they don't even believe the swill they're spouting. Just disengage, man.

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1 hour ago, El Jeffo said:

 

There's no arguing with these people, because they don't even believe the swill they're spouting. Just disengage, man.

 

 

It is not just an issue of arguing or engaging but if an opportunity to expose the silliness of what people from both sides of a discussion may spout it should not be missed for the sake of the wider audience!

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2 hours ago, keith2011 said:

I don't think life went on as normal during the plague, from memory of reports from the time I believe the rich fled to the countryside, often taking the disease with them, while those left in the cities with infections in their households were not allowed out on pain of death. Mass graves and burning of the dead was common, it also heralded the end of serfdom and many other social and economic changes in Europe.

After the plague life did attempt to get back to normal albeit after 1348 many countries needed a century or two to fully recover economically and demographically since it kept coming back. However there was no concept of "social distancing" indefinitely.

 

2 hours ago, keith2011 said:

I don't think anyone is proposing social distancing should go on indefinitely or do you have information to that effect?

 

Keleth:

 

18 hours ago, Keleth said:

It will never get back to normal as we used to know it unless there is a vaccine.

You cannot expect it to return to that when you know people will catch and spread the disease.

If no vaccine then the best you can hope for is for the virus to mutate into something less serious.

Once again the poor will get poorer and the rich will get richer no matter the state of the virus.

 

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1 hour ago, keith2011 said:

 

It is not just an issue of arguing or engaging but if an opportunity to expose the silliness of what people from both sides of a discussion may spout it should not be missed for the sake of the wider audience!

I believe the trolling on TT has made mincemeat of "the wider audience" :wacko:

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9 hours ago, J0ker said:

Do you honestly think people will do this for another 10 - 20 years?  The psychological damage will be much worse in the long run.  I understand for many TT-ers nothing has changed as the bulk of this forum spends most of its time on the computer.  Eventually the new norms will collapse and people will begin to question whether such an isolated life is worth living.  We got over the Spanish flu and the Plague.  Corona is a lot milder than those two.

So let me get this straight.

If no vaccine found or cure or herd immunity (such as after Spanish flu)then you expect things to return to normal.1000s of people crowded together again at sports etc,travel all over the world on full planes etc etc ?

It did not go back to normal as they knew it after the Spanish Flu ,it became a new normal.Before the Spanish flu spitting (such a minor thing) was considered something that people do and was socially accepted,however when  it was discovered it helped spread the flu it became socially unacceptable and was even worse thought of when TB became rife.

Same with the plague,do you honestly believe nothing changed after that ?

7 hours ago, J0ker said:

You're talking semantics. 

Haha no he`s not he`s explaining how life eventually returned to a new normal.

7 hours ago, J0ker said:

The point is that these two diseases had a higher mortality rate than Corona but life still went on

Weren`t you one of those "it`s no worse than the flu" people before.Now you`re comparing it to diseases with a much higher mortality rate.

Now show us examples of how life "went on" before people developed herd immunity to Spanish flu and how it went on after the plague with nothing changing.

1 hour ago, J0ker said:

After the plague life did attempt to get back to normal albeit after 1348 many countries needed a century or two to fully recover economically and demographically since it kept coming back. However there was no concept of "social distancing" indefinitely.

Oh so now it took a century or 2 to get back to normal.

Do you think maybe medical and hygiene advances helped with this ?

I get what you`re actually saying is "we go back to normal and fuck the deaths they are a part of it".

 

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2 hours ago, Keleth said:

I get what you`re actually saying is "we go back to normal and fuck the deaths they are a part of it".

 

He still thinks the virus only affects those he dislikes. Much like his role model. So let it rage. 

 

If he really is in Brazil, as he claims, he may be in for a rude awakening. Herman Cain died of a Kool-Aid overdose, too.5f24640adb45b_herman-cain-rally-ht-jt-20

Picture may show: Herman Cain, contracting Coronavirus at Trump rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, while stiggint to the libs

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13 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

 

He still thinks the virus only affects those he dislikes. Much like his role model. So let it rage. 

 

If he really is in Brazil, as he claims, he may be in for a rude awakening. Herman Cain died of a Kool-Aid overdose, too.5f24640adb45b_herman-cain-rally-ht-jt-20

Picture may show: Herman Cain, contracting Coronavirus at Trump rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, while stiggint to the libs

 


Trump’s legendary eloquence still shining, as we can see in his eulogy:

 

QUOTE 

At a Thursday evening press briefing on the coronavirus pandemic, Trump added that Cain “was a very special person, i got know him very well. And unfortunately he passed away from a thing called the China virus.”
UNQUOTE

 

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12 minutes ago, Smaug said:


Trump’s legendary eloquence still shining, as we can see in his eulogy:

 

QUOTE 

At a Thursday evening press briefing on the coronavirus pandemic, Trump added that Cain “was a very special person, i got know him very well. And unfortunately he passed away from a thing called the China virus.”
UNQUOTE

 

 

Man, that guy is all class, ain't he? It's crystal clear why so many Toytowners are so enamored of him.

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2 hours ago, Keleth said:

So let me get this straight.

If no vaccine found or cure or herd immunity (such as after Spanish flu)then you expect things to return to normal.1000s of people crowded together again at sports etc,travel all over the world on full planes etc etc ?

It did not go back to normal as they knew it after the Spanish Flu ,it became a new normal.Before the Spanish flu spitting (such a minor thing) was considered something that people do and was socially accepted,however when  it was discovered it helped spread the flu it became socially unacceptable and was even worse thought of when TB became rife.

Forgive my ignorance but where did you read that people stopped spitting due to the Spanish flu?  As a kid I recall tobacco chewing baseball players spitting on the field.  Also  football players spit water constantly.

 

You've completely missed my point (perhaps intentionally):  the Spanish flu had a much higher mortality rate than Corona but people still didn't socially distance after it was over.

 

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

Weren`t you one of those "it`s no worse than the flu" people before.Now you`re comparing it to diseases with a much higher mortality rate.

If you read my post before it was deleted I mentioned that the mortality rate is higher than the flu but that as the city of Toronto tweeted: "a person who dies with Covid but not of Covid is registered as a Covid death" thereby inflating the numbers.

 

Also aren't you still under the impression this is airborne Ebola?

 

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

Oh so now it took a century or 2 to get back to normal.

 

 

Learn to read:  I said it took a century or two for the demographics and economics to catch up with its pre 1348 levels in some regions.  People behaved as they did before after the plague subsided.  Why? Because it kept on coming back and it was simply a fact of life.

 

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

Do you think maybe medical and hygiene advances helped with this ?

Which groundbreaking 14th century medical advances are you talking about?

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23 hours ago, Keleth said:

It will never get back to normal as we used to know it unless there is a vaccine.

You cannot expect it to return to that when you know people will catch and spread the disease.

If no vaccine then the best you can hope for is for the virus to mutate into something less serious.

Once again the poor will get poorer and the rich will get richer no matter the state of the virus.

Rich people can also die against their will, Keleth. What is true - reforms can happen politically WHEN it affects privileged people. Just from ( my poor ) memory - sewerage in London in the 19th century and was it cholera? New laws cos the privileged were affected? 
Can’t remember. But then you had the anti-smog laws ( 1959? ) re coal burning in London. And that was before smog became a word in English!

 

 

Edit: 1956 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_1956

 

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18 hours ago, J0ker said:

Forgive my ignorance but where did you read that people stopped spitting due to the Spanish flu?  As a kid I recall tobacco chewing baseball players spitting on the field.  Also  football players spit water constantly.

 

Indeed. I regularly see men (usually of a certain demographic) spitting on the street here in Germany.

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5 minutes ago, GerardB said:

 

Indeed. I regularly see men (usually of a certain demographic) spitting on the street here in Germany.

 

since  "Demographic information examples include: age, race, ethnicity, gender, marital status, income, education, and employment." just which of these are you able to regularly discern?

 

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