Photography law while not photographing

141 posts in this topic

14 minutes ago, lunaCH said:

In this case it would have to be proven that the OP acted deliberately or wilfully. Did he?

I'm not sure whether you don't get this, are just avoiding what this means or just arguing from a point of 'never had to go though it so i'm going to just keep typing' type of thing.
The law isn't logical at times, it isn't like TV where the criminal gets caught. In real life, especially around this kind of thing, there is doing it and it being proven you did it.
The OP may not have done anything but that doesn't mean the other side cannot in in court.

The fact that you can lose even if you haven't done anything, even in cases like this where it just bollocks and being driven by people who just want cash, means at times people have to step into the adult world and decide if a risk is worth it.

Pay 500 now or go to court and risk losing and having to pay more (maybe even have to cover the other person's legal costs).

This isn't anything knew, lots of cases get settled out out of court due to the risk of higher fees or to avoid exposure in the press.

It is unfortunately the reason this happens. People will bring such bollocks cases knowing that it is just cheaper for the other side to pay. If you search the forum for 'illegal downloads' you will find a few threads which contain a similar situation where a few solicitor's were using his exact process to get cash out of people.

Yes, it's crap and i'm with you on that. It's not fair or right but it happens.

 

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On 10/08/2020, 10:22:41, cb6dba said:

...lots of cases get settled out out of court due to the risk of higher fees or to avoid exposure in the press.

AKA extortion. You call that stepping into the adult world? Like paying ransoms for hostages it encourages more of the same in the long run.

 

On 10/08/2020, 10:22:41, cb6dba said:

...solicitor's were using his exact process to get cash out of people.

Yes indeed. Unfortunately. It is a racket.

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1 hour ago, optimista said:

AKA extortion. You call that stepping into the adult world? Like paying ransoms for hostages it encourages more of the same in the long run.

 

Yes indeed. Unfortunately. It is a racket.

As my old A-level law teacher once said, "we have the best legal system money can buy". The people bringing this against the OP have done nothing legally wrong.

Yes, this is the adult world, at times you have to be able to handle tricky situations that don't make sense, are illogical or seem just unfair. You pick the hills to fight on.

If anyone however feels the OP should have acted the other way, I would suggest doing what he did until someone brings such a case against them and then fight it to the bitter end.

I wish you luck and I hope you win. Don't come crying to us if you don't.
 

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On 10/08/2020, 10:22:41, cb6dba said:

I'm not sure whether you don't get this, are just avoiding what this means or just arguing from a point of 'never had to go though it so i'm going to just keep typing' type of thing.
The law isn't logical at times, it isn't like TV where the criminal gets caught. In real life, especially around this kind of thing, there is doing it and it being proven you did it.
The OP may not have done anything but that doesn't mean the other side cannot in in court.
The fact that you can lose even if you haven't done anything, even in cases like this where it just bollocks and being driven by people who just want cash, means at times people have to step into the adult world and decide if a risk is worth it.

Pay 500 now or go to court and risk losing and having to pay more (maybe even have to cover the other person's legal costs).
This isn't anything knew, lots of cases get settled out out of court due to the risk of higher fees or to avoid exposure in the press.
It is unfortunately the reason this happens. People will bring such bollocks cases knowing that it is just cheaper for the other side to pay. If you search the forum for 'illegal downloads' you will find a few threads which contain a similar situation where a few solicitor's were using his exact process to get cash out of people.
Yes, it's crap and i'm with you on that. It's not fair or right but it happens.

Whilst almost everything you wrote could be true, the other side still need proof - they are not going to take it to court if they don't have any or if it is particularly flimsy. I'm fully aware that the law is illogical at times, - I would never dispute this.

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3 hours ago, lunaCH said:

Whilst almost everything you wrote could be true, the other side still need proof - they are not going to take it to court if they don't have any or if it is particularly flimsy. I'm fully aware that the law is illogical at times, - I would never dispute this.

The problem there is the burden of proof and how high it is.

Usually the burden in a civil case is lower and it depends on what proof would count. For example, do they need an actual photo, or would witness statements that the camera was there etc be enough. Is the actual issue here a photo or just where the camera was.
What happens if the OP goes to court, wins but doesn't get his costs covered? That is the game I think was being played here, damages set lower than a potential loss would have caused. As I said, it's shit and it's a shame that legal insurance doesn't cover at least a consultation in these situations. 

As I said, anyone can try to test this, just get back to us with the result.
 

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7 hours ago, cb6dba said:

As I said, it's shit and it's a shame that legal insurance doesn't cover at least a consultation in these situations. 


This is what I would have challenged. At least my legal cost insurance would have to cover the cost of fighting their decision.

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1 hour ago, jeba said:


This is what I would have challenged. At least my legal cost insurance would have to cover the cost of fighting their decision.

To me it's crazy, it should be there to cover you in this kind of situation.

It's possible to have the people suing the OP being able to use their insurance and he can't use his.

 

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This is why I mentioned proof. As john g. pointed out, some legal insurances cover this sort of thing, but apparently not if the crime committed was done so wilfully and/or deliberately. If the intent can't be proven and the OP has such a clause, then maybe the insurance could/should cover the costs of the case.

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First question a German lawyer will ask you is do you have legal insurance? The lesson here is don't ask random non lawyer at the insurance company for legal advice if you have cover, let your lawyer deal with it. 

Let him deal with the fact you where told illegally your not covered as well. Perhaps you need legal insurance for your legal insurance.

I'm not a lawyer. My daughter is if anyone wants to play. 

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2 hours ago, GoBike said:

First question a German lawyer will ask you is do you have legal insurance? 

This may be true. And indeed it was the first question the lawyer asked us. But you don't need legal insurance to pursue a case. We don't for the case we currently have against neighbour who vandalised our property. You just need to pay the lawyer and court fees in advance, all of which we have done. ;)

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I had never had any legal issues at all like this until I moved to Germany.

 

I'm not saying it's right, but I preferred the social pressure and fear of physical or social retribution to keep one from being an asshole that hung over these things in the UK, at least where I grew up.

 

I can't help but notice that the more developed a country is and the better the standard of living or the more privileged the person you are dealing with, that those people are crueler and have a greater propensity to act like an absolute prick in situations that require zero prickery.

 

The UK public, in my opinion, are much more rugged in their approach to sorting out these kind of disputes.  I can well imagine that the landlord would have gone round and had a go at OP, he would have responded in kind and they both would have walked away angry and then at some point they would just start acting close to normal with each other again, no cops, no lawyers, just a bit of shouting and waving arms. (unless you live in one of Birmingham's more economically challenged areas where I concede that it would ultimately be solved with a hammer or other blunt object).

 

I'd never heard of Eulenspiegel until I came to Germany, but I find it ironic that he is so popular in a country whose populus is so rife with hypocrisy, greed and an over inflated sense of entitlement and disregard for the feelings of others.

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1 hour ago, DaringD said:

I had never had any legal issues at all like this until I moved to Germany.

 

I'm not saying it's right, but I preferred the social pressure and fear of physical or social retribution to keep one from being an asshole that hung over these things in the UK, at least where I grew up.

 

I can't help but notice that the more developed a country is and the better the standard of living or the more privileged the person you are dealing with, that those people are crueler and have a greater propensity to act like an absolute prick in situations that require zero prickery.

 

The UK public, in my opinion, are much more rugged in their approach to sorting out these kind of disputes.  I can well imagine that the landlord would have gone round and had a go at OP, he would have responded in kind and they both would have walked away angry and then at some point they would just start acting close to normal with each other again, no cops, no lawyers, just a bit of shouting and waving arms. (unless you live in one of Birmingham's more economically challenged areas where I concede that it would ultimately be solved with a hammer or other blunt object).

 

I'd never heard of Eulenspiegel until I came to Germany, but I find it ironic that he is so popular in a country whose populus is so rife with hypocrisy, greed and an over inflated sense of entitlement and disregard for the feelings of others.

 

You and I could be friends. Be careful with these comments, the Toytown mob might come after you

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6 minutes ago, Petro6golf said:

You and I could be friends. Be careful with these comments, the Toytown mob might come after you

 

Let them come, I invite being challenged and I will change my opinion if someone can show me convincingly why I am wrong, but I have little time for general accusations of wrongsaying unless they can back it up with something substantive.

 

You hurt my feelings...

You offended me...

You can't say that...

You're a meany...

Waaaaaah!

 

are all examples of "not an argument" UNLESS they are followed in some short order by a "...because [insert salient point here] which I can back up with [insert facts or empirical evidence here]".

 

Opinions are welcomed, my post is nothing but opinion with a little empirical evidence thrown in, but opinions are not evidence in themselves and so I usually read them, decide if I agree or not and then simply move on.

 

I won't be bullied into saying or doing anything that goes against my current understanding of right or wrong at the time.

 

D

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I completely agree with you. Keep up the good work. This website is only slightly better than Reddit in terms of the online mob coming after you for not going with the flow. Dont say anything negative about refugees or anything pro conservative opinions and you will be fine lol 

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1 hour ago, Petro6golf said:

I completely agree with you. Keep up the good work. This website is only slightly better than Reddit in terms of the online mob coming after you for not going with the flow.

 

My condolences to you poor persecuted snowflakes.

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On 8/7/2020, 9:39:51, Ludwig13 said:

We paid, it's over and I am looking forward to the day we can get moved and yes, it is in the works. We are just waiting.

 

 

It's unfortunate @Ludwig13, that you felt you needed to pay (because you can't afford to risk the money/your health/accommodation) before I got to read about your plight. Im a consulting IT engineer with forensic experience (but not a lawyer) and have to tell you that these methods are typical of online scammers. You've been scammed, mate. You (and anyone still reading this thread) need to know this because it will happen again and again if you don't learn to recognize the behavior and how to respond. 

 

Firstly, I've looked into this area of German law and the Act allows you to personally take photos and videos (ie not surveillance) if you believe a crime is about to be committed. I had a confrontation over a parking spot 18 months ago and got my mobile camera out straight away. Didn't hesitate. When the other party cried "illegal" I had the great pleasure of informing him that it was not illegal because I believed he was about to commit a crime (assault). Instant backdown. This is a very effective response wherever someone starts threatening you by screaming and becoming abusive,  but it depends on the situation. It might be better to just run from such people. 

 

Your case also goes a little further. With online scams the scammers use a false identity to stop legal authorities catching up with them.  But in your case these people have been extremely stupid. You know who they are and where they live. Therefore, you can now make a complaint to the Polizei that you have been scammed by these people (fraud) by intimidation and forced to move out. Show them the letter of demand threatening you with extortion (that's what it is because unlawful photography is a crime - there is no civil claim) and tell them that you had no choice but to pay because you're too vulnerable (aged, unemployed, disabled). The Polizei (I love that word) will either act on your complaint or they won't. If they act, then you will need to be prepared to give evidence in criminal court against them. If the Polizei case is successful the court may order the money be paid back plus award damages, although this may require a separate civil action. There will be no legal costs to you for a polizei prosecution. You may be able to claim witness expenses.

 

None of the above is legal advice,  just my humble social media opinion. But you really,  Really,  REALLY need to talk to the Polizei !!! They will be very unimpressed that the people who first complained to them have scammed you like this after they already visited and informed them there was no illegality on your part.  

 

Also go to the EVZ which will provide valuable resources and guidance (better than mine) for your case and for any legal issues you may have in the future. The link is --> 

https://www.evz.de/en/index.html 

 

Alternatively,  you could just walk away from this and remember the above if it happens again. I completely respect that too. But in your case you have nothing to lose and every thing to gain just by simply picking up the phone and having a TALK TO TO THE POLIZEI.

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Wikiwebs...

 

That was a great post! and Polizei IS a great word.

 

I don;t like that people abuse their legal cover to extort people like OP and I agree with all of your points, I really wish someone would clamp down on this kind of stuff.

 

1 hour ago, Space Cowboy said:

My condolences to you poor persecuted snowflakes.

 

OK, I'm going to enter into a conversation with you (if you want to) about exactly how you came to the conclusion that I'm a snowflake.  Of course you are under no obligation but it would be nice to understand what your viewpoint is, and what I said that would give you that impression. Hell, we might even be able to keep it friendly. Maybe it's better to do it in private messages rather than grandstand out in the open, feel free to message me, I don't bite. In fact if anyone doesn't like anything I've said you can feel free to message me.

 

2 hours ago, Petro6golf said:

Dont say anything negative about refugees or anything pro conservative opinions and you will be fine lol 

 

I wouldn't say anything negative about anyone unless I have a decent reason to, but I can't bring myself to fall into this trap of identifying people by easy to manage groups: Refugees, conservatives, liberals, etc, etc, I usually take each person as I find them and taking circumstances and context into account.

 

I'm also very unlikely to espouse conservative viewpoints because I'm a filthy lefty, I just don't really see the point it that being my only defining quality and I certainly don't think it's a reason to get on my high horse because people think differently to me.  Some of my favourite people to spar with and some of my best friends here are ex US army I know from my barkeeping days that stuck around, most of which are more right leaning conservatives with a drop of liberal awareness, I just ask anyone who disagrees with me to explain why so I can understand them better and possibly learn something, but I don't subscribe to the left/right divide the same as I don't instantly judge people based on which football team they support or which religion they follow.

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43 minutes ago, DaringD said:

 

OK, I'm going to enter into a conversation with you (if you want to) about exactly how you came to the conclusion that I'm a snowflake.  Of course you are under no obligation but it would be nice to understand what your viewpoint is, and what I said that would give you that impression. Hell, we might even be able to keep it friendly. Maybe it's better to do it in private messages rather than grandstand out in the open, feel free to message me, I don't bite. In fact if anyone doesn't like anything I've said you can feel free to message me.

 

 

 

 

Hi DaringD - I was quoting another poster, who apparently decided to lump you in with people like him who are paranoid about getting "mobbed" on TT.  My post was not targeted at you.

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On 10/2/2020, 7:51:17, DaringD said:

can't help but notice that the more developed a country is and the better the standard of living or the more privileged the person you are dealing with, that those people are crueler and have a greater propensity to act like an absolute prick in situations that require zero prickery.

 

The UK public, in my opinion, are much more rugged in their approach to sorting out these kind of disputes. 

 

On 10/2/2020, 7:51:17, DaringD said:

I find it ironic that he is so popular in a country whose populus is so rife with hypocrisy, greed and an over inflated sense of entitlement and disregard for the feelings of others.

 

quote1 + quote2 = quote3

 

23 hours ago, DaringD said:

I have little time for general accusations of wrongsaying unless they can back it up with something substantive.

 

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