Photography law while not photographing

141 posts in this topic

Final Update:

Wife went over to talk to Frau Landlord. Of course, FL had to rant on and on about how hard it is to make a decent wage at the beer garden and every customer counts...blah blah blah. My wife was quite tolerant and let the woman rant. When all was said and done, wife asks what FL is willing to settle for or should we pursue and atty and take this to court. FL said to pay for their lawyer visit and they'll drop everything else. So, maybe 2 to 3 hundred Euros for their atty's time. 
Meanwhile, wife's boss' attorney calls us and says, ABSOLUTELY illegal to have a camera on display, functioning or not. If a person in any way feels their privacy is being violated, they have the right to complain. I'm too old for this crap. I'll pay the bill when it comes and be done with it. 

I'm putting this experience behind me and I want to say a HUGE THANK YOU to everyone. If I had money to burn, I would take this to court just to see what a legal stand on something like this is. Since I'm an old unemployed hobby photographer, I have to settle with what the wife says since she earns the money. 

 

Now would not be the time to ask Wife for a new camera :o

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We will do a crowdfunding for you at Xmas for a new camera, Ludwig13!😀😂

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5 hours ago, DaringD said:

some patrons did see the camera and think it was pointing at them, the fact is it wasn't, everything was lawful and that is all there is to it. Other people's feelings are not our concern or problem

Everything that you have written though is your opinion, which you are entitled to. You weren't though in precise same situation we were nor were you in the situation of the patrons' the OP allegedly may have filmed and bothered. Also, it wasn't just about the camera inside the flat, a camera was also used on the balcony. The OP said this. 

Again: different people react to these things in different ways. 

And evidently the people who thought they were being filmed felt strongly enough about it to call the Police.  ;)

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11 hours ago, Ludwig13 said:

ABSOLUTELY illegal to have a camera on display

 

and this is why there are no more camera stores in germany.

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There has been a legal judgement in the law regarding in car cameras and monitoring when driving in favor of the camera user. Every new Tesla has the option of a security camera when parked. Banks petrol stations hotels. 

Lawyers sometimes also quote urban myths only 50% are correct in all court cases. 

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I also doubt this assertion since I've seen plenty of camera stores in Germany, one here in Bamberg, Fotomax in Nürnberg and many others where cameras are displayed pointing outwards in the main windows. Don't take my word for it, I found a couple of pictures, I'm also going to drop by the one in Bamberg today when I'm in town to have a look and maybe even ask them what they would do if someone complained...

 

12 hours ago, lunaCH said:

You weren't though in precise same situation we were nor were you in the situation of the patrons' the OP allegedly may have filmed and bothered.

 

LunaCH  You don't know the first thing about me and what I have or have not experienced, please don't make statements about me unless you know them to be true.

 

 

 

CameraLawFotoMax.jpg

CameraLawLeistenschneider.jpg

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1 hour ago, DaringD said:

You don't know the first thing about me and what I have or have not experienced, please don't make statements about me unless you know them to be true.

What nonsense. You may have well experienced something similar - and if you have I am really sorry that you have had to go through something like that also, it's hard, but similar is not exactly the same. ;)

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1 hour ago, DaringD said:

I also doubt this assertion since I've seen plenty of camera stores in Germany, one here in Bamberg, Fotomax in Nürnberg and many others where cameras are displayed pointing outwards in the main windows. Don't take my word for it, I found a couple of pictures, I'm also going to drop by the one in Bamberg today when I'm in town to have a look and maybe even ask them what they would do if someone complained...

 

 

 

 

 

My over all German Law Spidey Senses tell me this is not going to be an issue for the shops. Gray law standards are everywhere here. I am curious about what you hear from the shop owner how he/she avoids paranoid people from coming in and raging over having a recording device pointing at them. I'm also wondering how much drama was added to my experience since I am a tenant to the offended ones? Suppose my neighbor had a decorative camera in their window, would there have been such a stink or was I singled out because I'm more easily approachable? Anyway, DaringD, fill us in on what you find out about the shops and displays. I'm very curious about their answer. Feel free to share my experience if it becomes relevant. 

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22 hours ago, Ludwig13 said:

wife's boss' attorney calls us and says, ABSOLUTELY illegal to have a camera on display, functioning or not.

 

your wife's boss attorney is an uneducated fraud.  Tell him/her I said that.  If he/she doesn't like it, sue me.

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15 minutes ago, catjones said:

 

your wife's boss attorney is an uneducated fraud.  Tell him/her I said that.  If he/she doesn't like it, sue me.

I don't think that a person after two Staatsexamen can be uneducated. It seems she lied :)

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21 hours ago, john g. said:

We will do a crowdfunding for you at Xmas for a new camera, Ludwig13!😀😂

Oh boy, do you know how much of a tease that is?

jk...I'm eyeing a new camera for sure. Wife reminded me this morning that the fees will have to be paid and MAYBE in the fall next year we can consider it...but that means I have to be good and that's my struggle.

Have a good rest of the week.

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14 hours ago, catjones said:

 

and this is why there are no more camera stores in germany.

Absolute rubbish.

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Update #2

The bill from the attorney came today. The 1000 'fine' was dropped but the 5000 Gegenstandwert was still enforced and their request is we pay 1.6 of the 5000.

Our bill is just over 585 Euros. CRAZY. My wife is going to talk to her attorney connection and see if this is reasonable or not. 

I unprofessionally think this is an insane amount for receiving a ransom letter and then a completion letter. 
I'll let you know how this goes. WOW....!!!

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32 minutes ago, lunaCH said:

You don't need to pay anything at all at this stage and you know it. :)

uh, after my wife talked to Frau Landlord, the agreement we came to was that we would pay the attorney fees to avoid court, the 1000 blackmail-hostage fee and keep the peace between us as renters and them as our landlord. She agreed to contact her atty and withdraw the complaint and the atty sent us the bill for services provided to FL. So yes, we will pay to keep the peace, but I question the amount. If you can tell me WHY I do not have to pay and can avoid further damages as well as a court appearance, feel free to represent me or provide evidence that I in fact will not be held liable by not paying. 

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Legally speaking you were not obliged to pay anything to anyone until a court has dictated otherwise. 

 

I understand you have since entered into a loose verbal agreement. I say loose as you agreed to pay something without knowing how much it would be. I don't know if your loose verbal agreement has now legally changed things.

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1 hour ago, lunaCH said:

Legally speaking you were not obliged to pay anything to anyone until a court has dictated otherwise. 

 

I understand you have since entered into a loose verbal agreement. I say loose as you agreed to pay something without knowing how much it would be. I don't know if your loose verbal agreement has now legally changed things.

Court = €€€€€€€€€

Money I don't have to invest win or lose. Your words are appreciated, but I can't risk losing and having to pay fees and their fees should I lose. 600 bucks, lesson learned. As ridiculous as this is, I feel extremely violated, but again, I could have moved the camera when they came bitching. I didn't do that, so I blame myself. I'm not going to play victim when I played a substantial role in it's escalation and outcome.

Thanks

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17 minutes ago, Ludwig13 said:

lesson learned.

 

You may have, but I don't see what that might be.  This is no different than the typical internet scam.  You don't have to prove you didn't take a picture, they have to prove you did.  It's your money, but your landlord spent it, you didn't.

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Once again: it is incredible how off track this tread has gone. You are being "sued" or  "mahnt" by your landlord - for the moment this is a civil and not a legal matter which involves the courts or the police. There is only one thing you can do - get a lawyer to advise how you should precede and respond to your landlord's attorney Mahnung.

 

Ian

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