Foreign trained Doctors recently working in DE - pay tariff problems?

6 posts in this topic

Hi everyone. 

 

I have a question for Doctors who already have part training from another country, and then came to Germany, passed all exams etc to get their Approbation and have already started work, and are being paid on a tariff below their true training grade, because of training time recognition problems. 

 

I am in this scenario. I did the first few years of my specialisation in the UK, then continued in Germany. The approbation does not recognise time in training abroad, so I had to start from scratch, and the Ärztekammer said my training time in the UK would be recognised, and then I could do my Facharzt after I had done the remaining time. On their website the process takes around 3-4 months. 

 

The hospital said i start on a new year 1 trainee contract (lowest pay band) and then when the ärztekammer completed their review, I would move to the correct pay level and be refunded the missing pay. 

 

What happened though, was that the process too 2,5 years, with the end outcome that they accepted 4 years and 4 months of training time fro the UK, so I could immediately do my Facharztprüfung. So 1) I was paid wrongly for all this time (almost 30k Brutto) and 2) instead of doing 5 years training, i ended up doing the 4y 4m from England plus 2,5 years in Germany - much longer than necessary, so lost out more because with a FA I also would have gone up a pay scale, and in that time could also be finished with my Weiterbildung instead of just beginning it. 

 

I am angry, being paid way less than my peers in the hospital, and that the Ärztekammer have 'wasted' my time significantly. Not to mention the stress, time, and paperwork required in that 2,5 years!Luckily, my bosses recognised my 'good work' and training and put some stress on the ÄK otherwise it could have taken longer. 

 

Regarding pay, I got a lawyer, and the hospital paid out 6 months backdated, but that still leaves 2 years outstanding. They are using a specific clause to support their argument against not paying, which is (better put in German):  nach § 23 AT AVR Ansprüche aus dem Dienstverhältnis verfallen, wenn sie nicht innerhalb einer Ausschlussfrist von 6 Monaten nach Fälligkeit schriftlich geltend gemacht werden. 

In my opinion (and the lawyers), the 'Fälligkeit' is when I received the confirmation of training time, and not when I applied for it, meaning that I have 6 months from the certification to apply, which I did (actually I did before that time).    Basically, I don't get paid properly because of the slowness of the Ärztekammer. 

 

Has anyone else had this problem, because my lawyer says this has never been tested in court. But as an 'Ausländerin' I think its really important, that if we have gone to the long road and effort of getting all the exams, and have good enough German skills, have integrated into the country and the language and have done everything asked, that we can be discriminated in this way. The UK has a great medical training system, and all my work was well documented. In fact, we got the comment, that when the Geschäftsführer actually looked at my documents, he found no problems, and from when he took over, the process took not so long. 

 

Hospitals could really profit from this, by employing trained foreigners, paying them as untrained workers, promising them the difference, but they know it takes more than 6 months, even when you as the foreigner don't, and they know they will get away with never having to pay! I only got 6 months backpay because I have an expensive lawyer. And before anyone comments, yes, I asked first, nicely, I offered to take a percentage of the pay to make life easy, but I was ridiculed and told 'doctors earn too much'. 

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1 hour ago, babydr84 said:

 'doctors earn too much'. 

 

good luck.  given the hours and responsibility, the Marburger tarif schedules are not overly generous.  Your effort to cut a deal was a good idea, sorry I don't have any anecdotal assistance to offer.

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2 hours ago, babydr84 said:

Regarding pay, I got a lawyer, and the hospital paid out 6 months backdated, but that still leaves 2 years outstanding. They are using a specific clause to support their argument against not paying, which is (better put in German):  nach § 23 AT AVR Ansprüche aus dem Dienstverhältnis verfallen, wenn sie nicht innerhalb einer Ausschlussfrist von 6 Monaten nach Fälligkeit schriftlich geltend gemacht werden. 

 

 

2 hours ago, babydr84 said:

I only got 6 months backpay because I have an expensive lawyer.

 

You only got 6 months because your lawyer didn't tell you to apply for it earlier. If you had made a written demand for the backpay within 6 months of starting (despite not having the official recognition yet), you'd have been entitled to backpay retroactive to when you started.

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Have you considered working for the pharmaceutical industry? Your command of German doesn´t have to be top notch (depending on your role, of course) as for big companies the company language is English anyway, hardly any nightshifts and much better pay than at hospitals. At least it was in my day (eighties/nineties).

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On 28.6.2020, 15:31:46, babydr84 said:

They are using a specific clause to support their argument against not paying, which is (better put in German):  nach § 23 AT AVR Ansprüche aus dem Dienstverhältnis verfallen, wenn sie nicht innerhalb einer Ausschlussfrist von 6 Monaten nach Fälligkeit schriftlich geltend gemacht werden. 

In my opinion (and the lawyers), the 'Fälligkeit' is when I received the confirmation of training time, and not when I applied for it, meaning that I have 6 months from the certification to apply, which I did (actually I did before that time).    

 

BTW, this is really not the proper forum to ask such questions (just in case anyone else ends up here). I would highly recommend asking asking questions regarding public sector collective bargaining agreements at https://forum.oeffentlicher-dienst.info/index.php.

 

Even if there is not a special sub forum for your agreement, the same clause can be found in the TV-L and TVöD.

 

On 28.6.2020, 15:31:46, babydr84 said:

Basically, I don't get paid properly because of the slowness of the Ärztekammer.

 

I think your expensive lawyer also contributed to the problem. The issue of Fälligkeit has been already established in court cases with respect to other collective bargaining agreements.

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Hi. Thanks for the link about collective bargaining - didn't know it came under that. 

Actually this specific problem has not been tested in law before. 

I ended up at a Gutetermin and came to an agreement with the employer. 

 

 

And thanks Jeba. Probably I would get paid more in pharma, but I love my new job at a new hospital (actually loved my old job too, just not the Verwaltung there).

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