Neighbor installed IR night hunting webcam facing my garden and property

68 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, jeba said:

Not sure whether they´d pay if the damage was done deliberately. Let´s ask @john g.

Yes, our aim is just to get him to pay as much as possible. We hope the court will decide that he has to pay everything.

Whether he has an insurance policy he can subsequently claim against for the deliberate damage is not something that we would be involved in or come to know about - I assume that would just be between him and his insurance and something that he would only be able to look at after being forced by the court to pay us an amount.

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3 hours ago, lunaCH said:

Yes, our aim is just to get him to pay as much as possible. We hope the court will decide that he has to pay everything.

Whether he has an insurance policy he can subsequently claim against for the deliberate damage is not something that we would be involved in or come to know about - I assume that would just be between him and his insurance and something that he would only be able to look at after being forced by the court to pay us an amount.

 

Further to being surprised that the police have taken no action on this, I think it is disgusting that your insurance are not paying out. Some nutter tries to break into your home and damages two doors and your heating (sorry that is why I had assumed in my earlier post that he had got in) and they expect you to take legal action against the offender to claim recompense for the damages, crazy. If you have not already done so I would tell you insurance agent not to expect any future business unless they honour the claim quickly and then it will be up to them to get the damages back from the offender or his insurance.

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29 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

Further to being surprised that the police have taken no action on this, I think it is disgusting that your insurance are not paying out. Some nutter tries to break into your home and damages two doors and your heating (sorry that is why I had assumed in my earlier post that he had got in) and they expect you to take legal action against the offender to claim recompense for the damages, crazy. If you have not already done so I would tell you insurance agent not to expect any future business unless they honour the claim quickly and then it will be up to them to get the damages back from the offender.

 

To clarify: the Police took action by notifying the Staatsanwaltschaft - it was the latter that closed the case saying it was not in the public interest to prosecute. :rolleyes: 

They have since (months later) reopened it as someone there evidently has seen that I don't stop emailing them and this person (not the same person who originally dealt with the case and closed it) has actually taken the time to read everything through and act upon what they have read. The Staatsanwaltschaft have now instructed the Police to investigate further, opening a new criminal case against the neighbour for the same incidents. I received an email from the Police with a list of questions about what happened. I emailed them back the answers in detail. That is as far as it has got in the criminal sense. 

 

To be fair to the building insurance - such an occurrence is not included in the policy, so they probably home and dry and out of the picture. We may switch providers or make changes to the policy, but given that this policy is also part paid by the neighbours, it will mean more expense - as they may not wish to modify it or switch providers and both parties (it's a house divided into two currently owner-occupied flats) would end up with their own building insurance policy for the same building. :rolleyes: 

 

Regarding the home contents insurance - again, to be fair, they have still not given a definitive negative answer or refusal to pay out. It is still ongoing - and now that the Police investigation is back open, it may take them even longer as the insurance is looking to the Police for more information. I'm being very patient about it. If the claim is refused in the end, of course I will change insurers. And at that point I will agree with you entirely that it is indeed disgusting - and blatantly the wrong decision. I thought home insurance was about protecting you against damage caused by drunken and demented monsters like him.

 

The heating system is in a common room, to which the neighbour has full access - this was how he was able to damage it without breaking in to our home or private area of the building. 

We were lucky that the hot water supply system was not affected. The heating itself was out of action for over 8 weeks. 

If the damage had been more severe it would have been an emergency job and possibly a whole new system necessary- in which case we'd have been looking at tens of thousands of euros to claim as opposed to two to three. :rolleyes: 

I think that is why the neighbour has calmed down a bit since then and stopped doing things like this - as otherwise a larger claim could mean him getting into debt and putting at risk his own share of their flat. Also he would possibly be risking being arrested. 

As soon as our lawyer was aware that the offender was part owner of their flat, he was very interested in pursuing the financial claim for us.

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Luna- sounds like a very stressful time. Good to hear you documented, reported and are following this through. Good luck!

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7 hours ago, lunaCH said:

Regarding the home contents insurance - again, to be fair, they have still not given a definitive negative answer or refusal to pay out. It is still ongoing - and now that the Police investigation is back open, it may take them even longer as the insurance is looking to the Police for more information. I'm being very patient about it. If the claim is refused in the end, of course I will change insurers.

 

Quote

  Bei einem Einbruch gehen infolge von Vandalismus häufig einige Gegenstände des Hausrats zu Bruch. Laut §3 Nr. 1 der Allgemeinen Hausrat-Versicherungsbedingungen (AHB 2010) gehören Vandalismus-Schäden infolge eines Einbruchdiebstahls zum Versicherungsumfang der Hausratversicherung. Bei einem Vandalismus-Schaden handelt es sich stets um eine vorsätzliche Zerstörung von Gegenständen durch einen Einbrecher.

 

deepl-translation:

In the event of a break-in, some household items are often broken as a result of vandalism. According to §3 No. 1 of the General Household Insurance Conditions (AHB 2010), damage caused by vandalism as a result of burglary is covered by the household insurance. Damage due to vandalism is always an intentional destruction of objects by a burglar.

https://www.check24.de/hausratversicherung/diebstahlversicherung/

 

The magic words are infolge eines Einbruchdiebstahls.

The problem may well be that he didn´t steal anything and therefore it´s not regarded a burglary but vandalism - which may not be covered. At least I remember a court ruling to that effect when a car was vandalised and the car insurance successfully refused to pay. Of course, that´s a different type of insurance - but it seems that the old adage applies according to which on high sea and in court you´re in the hands of god.

 

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Depends on the tariff and the „ extras „ you can build into the policy, jeba. The problem is... people often just look at the price on Check24 or whatever..“ oh, this one costs 10 euros a year more... expensive. Can you find me something else?“

 

And.. vandalism often happens to the building itself outside - rather than to inside the place eg graffiti, in which case the building insurance/ Wohngebäudeversicherung  comes into play.

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4 hours ago, RedMidge said:

Luna- sounds like a very stressful time. Good to hear you documented, reported and are following this through. Good luck!

Thank you. Yes it really has been. What I've mentioned on the isn't even half of what these people have done to us unfortunately. :(

2 hours ago, jeba said:

https://www.check24.de/hausratversicherung/diebstahlversicherung/

The magic words are infolge eines Einbruchdiebstahls.

The problem may well be that he didn´t steal anything and therefore it´s not regarded a burglary but vandalism - which may not be covered. At least I remember a court ruling to that effect when a car was vandalised and the car insurance successfully refused to pay. Of course, that´s a different type of insurance - but it seems that the old adage applies according to which on high sea and in court you´re in the hands of god.

This exactly. It's this precise point the insurance are debating, which is sad as initially they were asking for the quote for a door, when they found it was two doors and the cost, they decided to look more closely and since then have tried to wriggle out of paying. This is why we are pursuing the neighbour legally at the same time.

 

Incidentally, it appears that the fact was nothing was stolen is not an issue. It is the fact that there were two attempted (and unsuccessful) break-ins and that the damage was caused through these attempts which were incomplete. They are trying to say that this is vandalism, which of course it is, but at the same time, he was trying to break in. We reported it all to the Police as attempted break-ins. 

The damage to the heating was pure vandalism out of frustration at not being able to break in, - though he had caused similar damage to it before. 

The insurance are trying to say on this point that vandalism to heating systems located in common rooms is not covered as there is no need to break in to be able to get to it. The offender has a key. :rolleyes: 

If it (vandalism to heating systems in common rooms) is not able to be covered in the home insurance and nor is it covered in the building insurance - how the heck is one supposed to insure it?! :wacko: The mind boggles. 

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37 minutes ago, john g. said:

vandalism often happens to the building itself outside - rather than to inside the place eg graffiti, in which case the building insurance/ Wohngebäudeversicherung  comes into play.

Very true. I would say most cases of vandalism (not involving burglary or attempted break-ins) - occur outside or at least from the outside.

 

Incidents of vandalism inside will be fewer since for a lot of multi-dwelling buildings you need a key and so the number of people who are suspects is greatly reduced for a start.

 

In our case it happened in a common room, which is ordinarily locked - cases such as this will be even rarer. But our building insurance apparently doesn't specifically cover what happened (damage (through vandalism) to a heating system located in a common room to which the offender had the key). :rolleyes: 

And as mentioned, the household insurance is also trying to say it is not covered in their policy either, since the heating system is not part of the household:rolleyes: 

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On 28/06/2020, 14:09:48, lunaCH said:

the next step is lawyer taking it (him) to court - not sure if it is going to be a Klage or a Mahnbescheid route though, - not even sure if the latter option is possible in such a case. Have asked the lawyer, should get an answer in the next few days hopefully. :rolleyes:

Lawyer has informed us both routes are possible.

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On 30/06/2020, 21:21:34, lunaCH said:

... the damage was caused through these attempts which were incomplete.

And this is supposed to justify not coughing up?

Time to call a spade a spade. This is intellectual masturbation at its worst.

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8 hours ago, lunaCH said:

Lawyer has informed us both routes are possible.

 

Which does she/he recommend? I see you asking about Mahnbescheid on another thread. Why not ask the professional that you are paying?

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10 hours ago, optimista said:

And this is supposed to justify not coughing up?

Time to call a spade a spade. This is intellectual masturbation at its worst.

Indeed, at the moment they don't want to pay out as they say that the break-in attempts must be complete for the home insurance to pay for the damage. It really is ridiculous. They may still back down after they have spoken to the Police, but I can't see them paying everything. There's been no definite 'no, we won't pay anything', - not yet anyway.

 

10 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Which does she/he recommend? I see you asking about Mahnbescheid on another thread. Why not ask the professional that you are paying?

Concerning the options, of course, we asked.

The lawyer says that the simplest option is now a direct Klage as it is highly likely the neighbour will simply object to the Mahnbescheid to halt the process against him.

Even if he didn't - apparently he has a second chance to object at the Vollstreckung stage and halt things then, - that is if I have understood the procedure correctly. At either objection it seems you then need to divert to court. 

 

I was merely asking about Mahnbescheids specifically on the apposite thread as I did not know the form of delivery.

Our neighbour and our predecessors are known to have sometimes been non-resident or registered at a different address to where they were living, for various reasons, mainly for financial gain. It dawned on me that he had possibly switched his residence again to Switzerland, but continues to live here. I would not be at all surprised. :rolleyes: 

I wanted to know if Mahnbescheids are delivered to non-residents (if this were to be the case). It appears they are. The post office simply deliver - they don't check your status.

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11 hours ago, optimista said:

And this is supposed to justify not coughing up?

Time to call a spade a spade. This is intellectual masturbation at its worst.

Yes it may well be. Because calling a spade a spade in this case means calling vandalism vandalism and burglary burglary (which implies that something has indeed been stolen which in turn means that if nothing was stolen it wasn´t a burglary).

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

Yes it may well be. Because calling a spade a spade in this case means calling vandalism vandalism and burglary burglary (which implies that something has indeed been stolen which in turn means that if nothing was stolen it wasn´t a burglary).

But it was an attempted break-in, via two separate doors, gone awry. For the insurance it doesn't matter that nothing was stolen. 

If the vandalism is caused inside for example, let's say to internal doors which were locked as well but then forced open in order to gain access to further rooms inside, - the home insurance said they would pay for these internal doors to be repaired as this is vandalism following a break-in and is definitely covered in the policy. 

In our case the damage is resultant from the attempted but unsuccessful break-in, to two external doors and a heating system in a common room - this has made the case for the insurance, so much more peculiar.

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On 04/07/2020, 10:03:57, lunaCH said:

...attempted but unsuccessful break-in... this has made the case for the insurance, so much more peculiar.

But why we are encouraged to install window locks for example? So that it presents an obstacle to would-be burglars' success, thereby absolving the insurance from coughing up? What perverse and immoral logic that is. How do they invent such wankery?

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34 minutes ago, optimista said:

What perverse and immoral logic that is. How do they invent such wankery?

I think they'll say just about anything to try to get out of paying out. Nothing would surprise me as an excuse any longer. 

 

Meantime case is going to court - not against the insurance - as they have yet to decide either way - but against the neighbour.

So I'll be very interested to listen to the ridiculous excuses they will come up with to see that he doesn't pay out either, since he ignored our lawyer's letters.

He clearly still thinks he can get away with it all, yet at the same time is risking paying more than what he would have had to pay had he have settled up straight away, since according to the lawyer in these cases, the loser has to pay the costs, an extra couple of thousand it seems. :rolleyes:

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On 06/07/2020, 14:13:56, lunaCH said:

the insurance - as they have yet to decide either way -  :rolleyes:

6 months since neighbour smashed up two doors and heating system and the insurance still hasn't decided on the pay out and our emails are ignored. A joke.

Sent a couple of complaints to them, cancelled the policy and reported them to the Federal Financial Supervisory Authority. 

And as for the court case against the neighbour - stil no date set for the heating. Thank you corona.

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On 30/06/2020, 11:34:57, keith2011 said:

 

Further to being surprised that the police have taken no action on this, I think it is disgusting that your insurance are not paying out. Some nutter tries to break into your home and damages two doors and your heating (sorry that is why I had assumed in my earlier post that he had got in) and they expect you to take legal action against the offender to claim recompense for the damages, crazy. If you have not already done so I would tell you insurance agent not to expect any future business unless they honour the claim quickly and then it will be up to them to get the damages back from the offender or his insurance.

 

I now fully agree with you. I had been patient. I am that no more. It is entirely disgusting.

We've cancelled the policy. They have yet to acknowledge this though. :rolleyes:

 

On 03/07/2020, 21:07:58, optimista said:

And this is supposed to justify not coughing up?

Time to call a spade a spade. This is intellectual masturbation at its worst.

 

How do I say that in German? :)

 

On 06/07/2020, 14:07:50, optimista said:

But why we are encouraged to install window locks for example? So that it presents an obstacle to would-be burglars' success, thereby absolving the insurance from coughing up? What perverse and immoral logic that is. How do they invent such wankery?

 

I'd love to know how to say that as well. :)

 

On 04/09/2020, 19:30:13, lunaCH said:

6 months since neighbour smashed up two doors and heating system and the insurance still hasn't decided on the pay out and our emails are ignored. A joke.

Sent a couple of complaints to them, cancelled the policy and reported them to the Federal Financial Supervisory Authority. 

And as for the court case against the neighbour - stil no date set for the heating. Thank you corona.

 

So, as I posted on Friday, I sent complaints. Lo, suddenly 5 days later (it's been over 6 months since the incident now) the final decision from the home/contents insurance has come through. 

The claim was for around €10'700. Of this amount Helvetia refuse to pay out a cent. They say that there was no break in. 

Well, there was no break in. There were at least two attempted break-ins - during which all of the damage was caused. 

 

So, I'm not sure now if we will try to contest this decision. I don't know if this is possible, I assume legally it must be. 

In the meantime the completely separate avenue of chasing the neighbour for the money for the damages remains open. As mentioned, still waiting for the court date. 

 

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For those interested in their position: 

Ihr E-Mail, sowie Ihre Mitteilung auf unserer Homepage, wurden dem Rechtszeichner, in seiner Funktion als Abteilungsleiter Sachschaden, vorgelegt. Mit unserem Schreiben vom Mai '20 hatten wir Ihnen mitgeteilt, dass wir die amtliche Ermittlungsakte für unsere Regulierungsentscheidung heranziehen werden. Diese ist uns zwischenzeitlich zugegangen. Die Prüfung der amtlichen Ermittlungsakte ergab, dass durch die Polizei Ermittlungen hinsichtlich des Tatbestands der Sachbeschädigungen geführt werden. Eine Regulierung des Schadens an Ihrer Wohnungstür setzt jedoch den Tatbestand eines Einbruchs vorraus. Für diesen Tatbestand ergibt sich aus der Ermittlungsakte kein Anhaltspunkt. Bedingungsgemäß sind in Ihrer Hausratversicherung Vandalismusschäden lediglich innerhalb der Wohnung und nur infolge eines Einbruchs abgedeckt. Eine Regulierung der von Ihnen beanspruchten Schäden ist deshalb nicht möglich.

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3 hours ago, lunaCH said:

So, as I posted on Friday, I sent complaints. Lo, suddenly 5 days later (it's been over 6 months since the incident now) the final decision from the home/contents insurance has come through. 

The claim was for around €10'700. Of this amount Helvetia refuse to pay out a cent. They say that there was no break in. 

Well, there was no break in. There were at least two attempted break-ins - during which all of the damage was caused. 

 

So, I'm not sure now if we will try to contest this decision. I don't know if this is possible, I assume legally it must be. 

In the meantime the completely separate avenue of chasing the neighbour for the money for the damages remains open. As mentioned, still waiting for the court date. 

 

 

Typical, they love to take your money but when it is time to pay out on a claim....

In Germany there is an insurance ombudsman, my wife lodged a claim against her health insurance and got a good result, not sure if you have the same in Switzerland though.

BTW regarding the quote about window locks, whilst it might stop a burglar it might also stop someone getting out in case of a fire etc.

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