Riots in Stuttgart

187 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, engelchen said:

And most of these people who stay in Germany will spend their lives on welfare or working minimum wage jobs

 

are you referring to East Germans?

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I kind of was thinking the same. Maybe it was fuelled by some sort of professional trouble makers who just needed to tap in a few youngsters open to a general idea of something happened to me and instead of thinking it through and finding the part where they went wrong (eg. not caring about schooling will potentially not let you end up in a well paid leading position) they rather hang it up to some unsorted idea of it only happened to me because someone else did not like my cultural ethnic or whatever background. 

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3 hours ago, bramble said:

 

Merkel suspended the Dublin agreement only for Syrian asylum seekers due to the war, though loads of non-Syrians  jumped on the bandwaggon, throwing away their non-Syrian passports along the way. Asylum seekers are not even allowed to work, at least for the first three months, and then certain rules apply, which can take years before being eligable in joining the workforce. I gather you were not an asylum seeker so you cannot compare yourself and your Syrian fellow pupils at the Integrationskurs. Germany was not looking for unskilled workers, but for Facharbeiter (still is) of which there is a severe shortage. Plenty of supply of unskilled workers from Eastern EU countries so no shortage there. 

 

 

Yeah, I am not an asylum seeker.  I am a specialist, and there are very few people in the world with my skillset.  Nevertheless, it hasn't been easy - I have experienced casual discrimination due to the fact that I am a foreigner.  I was warned by my senior leadership in the US that the Germans were very nationalistic in hiring, and my leadership was right.  I got turned down for jobs because, "No way will we hire a non-German," and "All Americans are superficial scum."j

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4 hours ago, john g. said:

What does it ( sometimes ) come down to? The attitudes of the parents towards education.

 

4 hours ago, john g. said:

It‘s greatly about social class and always will be.

So very true. And it applies to native Germans just as well. I realised this when my daughter was attending Hauptschule after we returned from abroad. There were at most 5 parents present at parent-teacher meetings.

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3 hours ago, engelchen said:

The open house at the Innenministerium was actually a few days after she made the announcement and a guy from the Ministry giving a presentation indicated that she took this decision without consulting the bureaucrats responsible.

Yes, because it was a humaitarian crisis with no time for lengthy considerations and discussions. She had to decide within a few hours. And I don´t think she had given much thought to what it might entail or that it might be seen as an invitation. Plus I think it may well have been a factor that Merkel is from a religious familiy (her father was a priest) and raised in Eastern Germany so she had less of a materialist mindset than a West German chancellor might have had.

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8 hours ago, john g. said:

Yes, as soon as someone burns your friends‘ or family store down and doesn‘t give a shit- then it‘s time for a rethink if you support such violence.

 

I hope there is nobody on this forum who gets excited by this violence in Stuttgart. And thinks it is in any way justifiable.

 

While most may believe that the violence in Stuttgart was unjustified, it has not occurred to them that the violence in the US, London, Paris, Brussels, ... also may not have been justified.    

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10 hours ago, GerardB said:

@adlerhill: Yes, the children of immigrants do have the same opportunities as indigenous German kids, and many/most of them take advantage of those opportunities. The fact that some immigrant communities may lag behind in terms of educational attainment has to do with different attitudes to education, different values, etc. and not with lack of opportunities. 

In my opinion/experience, that is not correct.   There is open prejudice towards Turks, Arabs and Africans among others. 

 

Ask the two Berlin members on here accusing everyone of racism if they would have sent their kids to a random public primary school in Kreuzberg or Neukölln and you can see exactly what i mean.   Their kids will never mix openly and without controls with kids from those neighborhoods, and the processes that enforce those relationships, rather than a failure to use polite language, are the basis of prejudice in Germany and some other countries where i have lived.    

 

10 hours ago, GerardB said:

I remember speaking to a teacher in Berlin a few years ago who said something very interesting: in his experience, the children from Vietnamese families performed far better at school than those from Turkish and Arabic families.

 

Now, if immigrant children don't have the same opportunities as German kids do, which is what you claim, maybe you could explain to me why the Vietnamese children do so well. These differences between ethnic groups are also found in most other countries. In the UK, for instance, I believe children of Indian origin on average do better at school than those from Pakistani, Bangladeshi - and indigenous English - families. 

 

 

There are differences in the income level and educational levels of the parents.   In the late 1990s, around a third of tech firms in Silicon Valley were founded by Indians.    I don't have hard data, but those were not street sweepers, but rather IIT grads from relatively wealthy / privileged families.  

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9 minutes ago, balticus said:

In my opinion/experience, that is not correct.   There is open prejudice towards Turks, Arabs and Africans among others. 

 

Ask the two Berlin members on here accusing everyone of racism if they would have sent their kids to a random public primary school in Kreuzberg or Neukölln and you can see exactly what i mean.   Their kids will never mix openly and without controls with kids from those neighborhoods, and the processes that enforce those relationships, rather than a failure to use polite language, are the basis of prejudice in Germany and some other countries where i have lived.    

My German friend actually sent her first born to a local school with a high share of immigrants. Her reasoning was that we need to mix in order to make an immigrant society work. Sadly, she had to take out her kid from that school and sent her to a mainly German school because her child ended up being discriminated against and the learning level was too low. And you are right to ask this question about who is willing to let there child grow up that way.
BTW another friend of mine used to live among those Turkish and Arab immigrants. Had to leave that part of the town because as a transgender woman Arabs and Turks insulted her on the streets, hit her, spit in her face. She moved to a German part of the town, said Germans are more civilized, they look disapproving but leave her alone.
 

And a colleague of mine left Essen because of the high rate of Muslims living there. Said as a German women she was treated like a prostitute, called slut on a daily basis. So I think respect goes both ways. And I am well aware about the disrespect and disdain immigrants have for the natives. I am not sure anymore if this will end well.

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6 hours ago, Space Cowboy said:

 

 

Yeah, I am not an asylum seeker.  I am a specialist, and there are very few people in the world with my skillset.  Nevertheless, it hasn't been easy - I have experienced casual discrimination due to the fact that I am a foreigner.  I was warned by my senior leadership in the US that the Germans were very nationalistic in hiring, and my leadership was right.  I got turned down for jobs because, "No way will we hire a non-German," and "All Americans are superficial scum."j

 

It's never easy. Maybe you experienced the Vorrangprüfung, whereby Germans and EU members have precedence. 

Quote

 

The Federal Employment Agency (BA) is in principle legally obliged to carry out a labour market examination if foreign employees - from countries that do not belong to the European Union (EU) or the European Economic Area (EEA) - are to be employed. As a rule, the labour market examination consists of the so-called priority examination and the examination of the employment conditions. In this process, the Arbeitsmarktzulassung (AMZ) teams and the regional employer services (AG-S) of the employment agencies work closely together. The aim of the labour market review is to identify any adverse effects on the German labour market and distortions of competition through the employment of foreign women workers and employees.
 

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/datei/dok_ba013628.pdf

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31 minutes ago, bramble said:

It's never easy. Maybe you experienced the Vorrangprüfung, whereby Germans and EU members have precedence.

Exactly. And btw that´s not different when Europeans want to work in the US. Or most other countries outside the EU.

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1 hour ago, balticus said:

Ask the two Berlin members on here accusing everyone of racism if they would have sent their kids to a random public primary school in Kreuzberg or Neukölln and you can see exactly what i mean.   Their kids will never mix openly and without controls with kids from those neighborhoods,

It´s like that even within German neighbourhoods. It´s not about ethnicity but about as John rightly pointed out about class, language and norms. E. g. as a kid growing up in Würzburg I was told to be careful not to speak like those people from the other side of the river Main (where working class people lived who would e. g. say "eikäff" rather than "einkaufen").

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1 hour ago, Namu said:

My German friend actually sent her first born to a local school with a high share of immigrants. Her reasoning was that we need to mix in order to make an immigrant society work. Sadly, she had to take out her kid from that school and sent her to a mainly German school because her child ended up being discriminated against and the learning level was too low. And you are right to ask this question about who is willing to let there child grow up that way.
BTW another friend of mine used to live among those Turkish and Arab immigrants. Had to leave that part of the town because as a transgender woman Arabs and Turks insulted her on the streets, hit her, spit in her face. She moved to a German part of the town, said Germans are more civilized, they look disapproving but leave her alone.
 

And a colleague of mine left Essen because of the high rate of Muslims living there. Said as a German women she was treated like a prostitute, called slut on a daily basis. So I think respect goes both ways. And I am well aware about the disrespect and disdain immigrants have for the natives. I am not sure anymore if this will end well.

Stories like these raise the question to which extent prejudices are justified acknowledgements of reality rather than racism.

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13 hours ago, arsenal21 said:

 

Is that social science or ethnic science?

 

It's social science.   The same type of methodology used to gather data and make informed decisions about all sorts of things.  Sometimes ethnicity is a valid and useful data point.  Just ask France where they aren't collecting ethnic-associated medical data how useful it is to be blind to ethnicity.

 

Wikipedia:  Social science is the branch of science devoted to the study of societies and the relationships among individuals within those societies.

The term was formerly used to refer to the field of sociology, the original "science of society", established in the 19th century. In addition to sociology, it now encompasses a wide array of academic disciplines, including anthropology, archaeology, economics, human geography, linguistics, management science, media studies, musicology, political science, psychology, welfare and nursing studies[1] and social history.

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7 hours ago, jeba said:

it was a humaitarian crisis ...  I don´t think she had given much thought to what it might entail or that it might be seen as an invitation

 

I think you got that right.  She should have consulted a social scientist.

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15 hours ago, LeonG said:

does anybody in Germany need a Syrian lawyer?  Is he owed that because they accepted him as a refugee?

 

Nope.  Because there are still functional telephone and Internet connections to Damascus.  And I am not kidding, I have involved with ongoing legal proceedings in Damascus despite the civil war.

 

Similarly, there is a not a big demand in Germany for British or American lawyers -- because they are only a phone call away.

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3 hours ago, balticus said:

In my opinion/experience, that is not correct.   There is open prejudice towards Turks, Arabs and Africans among others. 

 

Ask the two Berlin members on here accusing everyone of racism if they would have sent their kids to a random public primary school in Kreuzberg or Neukölln and you can see exactly what i mean.   Their kids will never mix openly and without controls with kids from those neighborhoods, and the processes that enforce those relationships, rather than a failure to use polite language, are the basis of prejudice in Germany and some other countries where i have lived.    

 

 

There are differences in the income level and educational levels of the parents.   In the late 1990s, around a third of tech firms in Silicon Valley were founded by Indians.    I don't have hard data, but those were not street sweepers, but rather IIT grads from relatively wealthy / privileged families.  

 

There may well be some prejudice against Turks, Arabs and Africans in Germany but that's not the same as suggesting that they don't have the same educational opportunities as everyone else, because they do. But as everyone except those on the politically correct left know, equal opportunities don't always translate into equal outcomes.

 

Regarding different incomes and educational levels of immigrants: the Vietnamese in Berlin are mostly working class people, similar to the Turks and Arabs, so the difference in the performance of the children at school is not down to social class.

 

 

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By the way regarding foreign qualifications,  STEM degrees are recognized 1 to 1 in Germany. Regardless of where you did it it from. If you pursued the degree in a major language like English (as it happens in almost all ex English colonies), you don't even need to translate the degree to German or do the annerkenung. I believe this relaxation of rules has alot to do with keeping  STEM salaries low and reasonable, as by now Germans  would have been asking for 100k salaries, if foreign STEM degrees were not accepted.

 

I saw somewhere in this thread that Syrian degrees are garbage. Whoever wrote that never studied with a Syrian. My Masters Engineering studies in a top 10 German  University had a couple of Syrians. They had Bachelors degrees from Syria. They aced their studies easy with mainly 1.0s or 1.3s . Matter of fact, most foreigners even from third world education systems found the studies relatively easy here. And I reiterate, this is a top Uni.

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Should somebody be interested about the kind education yound Turks and Arabs get at home:

"Muslimisch, männlich, desintegriert: Was bei der Erziehung muslimischer Jungen schiefläuft", Ahmet Toprak

Toprak was born in Turkey, wnet with his parents to Germany, returned to Turkey to go to school and eventually studied educational science inm Germany.

he now is a professor for educational science.

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The background to the people who were rioting doesn't really matter. The reason people behave like this is that some people behave the way they are allowed to behave. They know that they have a slim chance of getting caught and, even if they are arrested, they will be let off with a small fine/warning. This is the same with football hooligans, left wing extremists at the G7 Summit in Hamburg, pickpockets outside most main train stations, etc., etc.

 

If Germany wants to put a stop to this then they need to clamp down hard on these people. Identify them, arrest them and punish them with at least a few months in jail in the same way the authorities did in the UK during the London riots in 2011. That was pretty much the same thing with a lot of young, disadvantaged youths thinking they could play the numbers game and get mixed up in large rioting crowds, steal from shops and, as it was their first offence, nothing would happen to them if they were caught. The UK courts were told to ignore sentencing guidelines and hand out harsh sentences to the offenders, which they did and they were backed up by the UK government. The same thing needs to happen here.

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3 hours ago, The Vindictive said:

I saw somewhere in this thread that Syrian degrees are garbage. Whoever wrote that never studied with a Syrian.

 

I wrote that, and yes I did.  

 

If your studies are based largely on numbers, it may matter less, since rote learning with math still works. Most of the international engineering students I know here all seem to be watching supplemental youtube lectures/how to videos (mostly from Indians, it seems) anyway.  

 

You can certainly have highly intelligent motivated individuals, and I have known them too. Very bright, quick learners, hard-working, yup. I encouraged some to try to get to the US, Canada, Australia, or UK, as they were too good to be stuck in Germany. But a prior degree itself is no guarantee of anything when it's from a corrupt country, which was my point. (Nor an Ivey League/Golden Triangle degree for that matter). I didn't say the graduates/individuals were garbage, I said the education system was. It's unfortunately not trustworthy.

 

(I have a couple other personal experiences, but that typing will have to wait for a less busy day.)

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