Riots in Stuttgart

[fraufruit 42,468]

17 minutes ago, alderhill said:

No, they don't. Not sure your obvious trolling deserves a response.

 

Bingo! You may or may not have noticed that most people stopped responding to it.

 

Join the club.

[GerardB 43]

@adlerhill: Yes, the children of immigrants do have the same opportunities as indigenous German kids, and many/most of them take advantage of those opportunities. The fact that some immigrant communities may lag behind in terms of educational attainment has to do with different attitudes to education, different values, etc. and not with lack of opportunities. 

 

I remember speaking to a teacher in Berlin a few years ago who said something very interesting: in his experience, the children from Vietnamese families performed far better at school than those from Turkish and Arabic families.

 

Now, if immigrant children don't have the same opportunities as German kids do, which is what you claim, maybe you could explain to me why the Vietnamese children do so well. These differences between ethnic groups are also found in most other countries. In the UK, for instance, I believe children of Indian origin on average do better at school than those from Pakistani, Bangladeshi - and indigenous English - families. 

 

[alderhill 1,089]

4 hours ago, Space Cowboy said:

They each found, to their dismay, that everything they had ever done prior to coming to Germany was useless.  Degrees?  Not recognized.  Skills?  Not proven to German satisfaction.  Experience?  Doesn't count in Germany if you don't have a recognized degree or certificate.

 

There are routes to upgrading skills, but nothing is automatic. My parents-in-law hosted in their spare rooms a couple Syrian dentists and doctors who were retraining for German qualifications. 

 

The fact is, the Syrian education system is complete garbage. Besides that everything is corrupt to the core, at its best it relies on outdated ideas of rote learning. I directly asked about 30 Syrian student-aged people about this (plus a few Afghans, Sudanese and others). Your future is decided based on your class/income levels. 'Good occupations' tend to be reserved for the family members of those who already have them. It's like this in a lot of poor, developing countries. Degrees do not always translate 1-to-1 in a new place. My dad had a colleague decades ago who liked to repeat the line 'Better a degree from a no-name Canadian university than the best in India'. He was Indian (and would've studied in the 70s or so).
 

In some ways that is unfair, but that's also why I think comprehensive and fair re-training and education pathways for immigrants are an absolute must. Not everyone will succeed, there are many hurdles and not all you can change, but they should have the opportunity without having to start from zero. 

 

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My impression is that the real reason Germany invited the refugees here was precisely to fill these kinds of jobs.

 

Well, duh. That's not even a secret. German-born children don't want to grow up to be broom pushers. Lots of trades and Ausbildungen have too few numbers. 

 

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Germans want cushy desk jobs, or high-paying skilled labor jobs.  The descendants of the original "guest workers," who were invited here to do the menial labor, have integrated to the point where they don't want to do the menial work either.

 

This is true the world over. Even China does not have an infinite supply of rural peasants willing to be factory drones for generations. They haven't reached saturation point yet, but in a few decades, sure. No parent wants their child to work a job as shitty or shittier than them.

 

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I can only imagine how I'd feel if I came here to escape war and atrocities in my home country, only to find that the real reason I was invited was so I could do the dirty work that the locals don't want to do, and then have them look down upon me for it.  Maybe I'd bust out some windows too. 

 

It's not as if Germany invited anyone. But they saw an opportunity, and could gain a little street cred in the bargain. Even back home, the average person's idea of Germany is quite different from reality. This is true almost everywhere, including here, among Germans about other places. 

[GerardB 43]

7 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Bingo! You may or may not have noticed that most people stopped responding to it.

 

Join the club.

@fraufruit: Define trolling. When somebody disagrees with you?

[arsenal21 401]

6 hours ago, DoubleDTown said:

 

 

I think it's legitimate social science to figure out the background of who participated in the violence.   Anecdotal evidence from the many YouTube videos suggest the participants are not ethnic Germans.  That's just a fact.

 

Is that social science or ethnic science?

[john g. 37,776]

31 minutes ago, alderhill said:

 

There are routes to upgrading skills, but nothing is automatic. My parents-in-law hosted in their spare rooms a couple Syrian dentists and doctors who were retraining for German qualifications. 

 

The fact is, the Syrian education system is complete garbage. Besides that everything is corrupt to the core, at its best it relies on outdated ideas of rote learning. I directly asked about 30 Syrian student-aged people about this (plus a few Afghans, Sudanese and others). Your future is decided based on your class/income levels. 'Good occupations' tend to be reserved for the family members of those who already have them. It's like this in a lot of poor, developing countries. They do not always translate 1-to-1 in a new place. My dad had a colleague decades ago who liked to repeat the line 'Better a degree from a no-name Canadian university than the best in India'. He was Indian (and would've studied in the 70s or so).
 

In some ways that is unfair, but that's also why I think comprehensive and fair re-training and education pathways for immigrants are an absolute must. Not everyone will succeed, but they should have the opportunity without have to start from zero. 

 

 

Well, duh. That's not even a secret. German-born children don't want to grow up to be broom pushers. Lots of trades and Ausbildungen have too few numbers. 

 

 

This is true the world over. Even China does not have an infinite supply of rural peasants willing to be factory drones for generations. They haven't reached saturation point yet, but in a few decades, sure. No parent wants their child to work a job as shitty or shittier than them.

 

 

It's not as if Germany invited anyone. But they saw an opportunity, and could gain a little street cred in the bargain. Even back home, the average person's idea of Germany is quite different from reality. This is true almost everywhere, including here, among Germans about other places. 

A wise post and also one which fits in with my experience of living in a number of „ developing countries.“ . The cronyism even works in eg Greece and Spain, both of which I have experience with.

 

A little anecdote from here a few months ago ( many more available on a similar vein from Greece):

With my German partner Nicole, I walked into a hairdresser‘s place and the lady was friendly and we got chatting. „ Oh, Nicole. You are German? My best friend lives there and she loves it. Everything works. I would love to go there to live.“

 

Nicole: „ it does but you have to pay tax.“

Hairdresser“: oh..“😟

[jeba 4,364]

30 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said:

 

And you are wrong.  Read BAMF’s 411-93605/Syria/2015 document.  Then watch Frau Merkel‘s 31.08.2015 press conference.

The document is no invitation but merely a waiver of Germany´s right to send refugees back to the EU country they entered first. And it was written after the horse had bolted already. Same with the press conference. Same with the press conference which was in August only when she had accepted the 3000 from Hungary in June already. And she didn´t invite refugees, much less economic migrants. It has always been expected that they will go back once their home country will be safe again, just as the refugees from Kosovo had to 20 years ago. That´s why their residence permits aren´t permanent ones.

[Space Cowboy 1,466]

31 minutes ago, alderhill said:

 

 

The fact is, the Syrian education system is complete garbage.

 

Agreed.  

 

 

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In some ways that is unfair, but that's also why I think comprehensive and fair re-training and education pathways for immigrants are an absolute must. Not everyone will succeed, but they should have the opportunity without have to start from zero. 

 

Also agreed.  But if your immediate goal as a country is to obtain a million ditch-diggers and fruit pickers, don’t offer those kinds of programs.  Just do the bare minimum so the workers can follow orders.  

 

Not to say that there aren’t ANY programs - there are.  I took a Berufbezogenes B2 course, and it was about half refugees.  My friend the engineer/cook was also in that class.  But - I left the class one month before it finished (still took the test though) because I had been hired to a senior-level position with an IT firm.  I know exactly what my friend felt about that, because he told me.  He was expecting he would have to continue on through C1, so he could have a chance to attend university in order to (re)learn his engineering profession.  In the meantime he would have to continue working as a cook in order to properly care for his wife and newborn child.  He recognized that as a refugee, he gets no respect.

 

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It's not as if Germany invited anyone.

 

But that is exactly what Germany did, when it suspended the Dublin agreement.

[jeba 4,364]

5 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said:

But that is exactly what Germany did, when it suspended the Dublin agreement.

No, that´s how you misinterprete it.

[arsenal21 401]

May be a cultural misinterpretation between jeba and SC. If someone says "Pop in if you're in the neighbourhood", that counts as an invitation in some places.

 

Germans when giving an invitation will usually give you the time, date, address and tell you what sort of sausages to bring.

[alderhill 1,089]

57 minutes ago, Space Cowboy said:

Also agreed.  But if your immediate goal as a country is to obtain a million ditch-diggers and fruit pickers, don’t offer those kinds of programs. Just do the bare minimum so the workers can follow orders.  

 

There's a need for both, though.

 

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I know exactly what my friend felt about that, because he told me.  He was expecting he would have to continue on through C1, so he could have a chance to attend university in order to (re)learn his engineering profession.  In the meantime he would have to continue working as a cook in order to properly care for his wife and newborn child.

 

I have more than once been told by different people, with some obvious relief in the tone, they they were glad I was the right kind of immigrant (nevermind that I don't plan to stay here forever). In different ways, sometimes implicit, but clear. And none were stereotypical black clothing AfD types. We do of course benefit from our native English-speaker privilege, white privilege, (male privilege?), etc.

 

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But that is exactly what Germany did, when it suspended the Dublin agreement

 

There was certainly no explicit or unified invitation. I think it had as much to do with Germany protecting its reputation and the still-lingering dark cloud from those times. Parallels were quickly drawn and Khaleesi Merkel could do nought else than be the saviour on a white horse. Though damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

1 hour ago, arsenal21 said:

Is that social science or ethnic science?

 

Sure sounds like confirmation bias.

 

Socio-economic and ethnic data should be collected, but it's all about how you do it (not stopping random brown people on the street and giving them the third degree) and what you do with the data. This requires a society that is genuinely interested in solving its issues, not simply playing the blame game or feeding tribalism. 

[john g. 37,776]

1 hour ago, GerardB said:

@adlerhill: Yes, the children of immigrants do have the same opportunities as indigenous German kids, and many/most of them take advantage of those opportunities. The fact that some immigrant communities may lag behind in terms of educational attainment has to do with different attitudes to education, different values, etc. and not with lack of opportunities. 

 

I remember speaking to a teacher in Berlin a few years ago who said something very interesting: in his experience, the children from Vietnamese families performed far better at school than those from Turkish and Arabic families.

 

Now, if immigrant children don't have the same opportunities as German kids do, which is what you claim, maybe you could explain to me why the Vietnamese children do so well. These differences between ethnic groups are also found in most other countries. In the UK, for instance, I believe children of Indian origin on average do better at school than those from Pakistani, Bangladeshi - and indigenous English - families. 

 

That is often true. I can‘t speak about lack of opportunities at schools in Germany for non- Germans. What IS true is levels of attainment do differ among different „ ethnic groups.“ 

What does it ( sometimes ) come down to? The attitudes of the parents towards education.

I come from the English working class - admittedly some decades ago - but I had zero support from my parents and other close family members. I even signed my own „ school reports for the parents.“ No one ever turned up for parent/ teacher meetings.

A very typical English working class attitude back then if you were hoping to get away from the factory/ mining culture/ mindset? „ Too clever for his own good.“

It‘s greatly about social class and always will be.

[LeonG 14,850]

56 minutes ago, alderhill said:

It's not as if Germany invited anyone. But they saw an opportunity, and could gain a little street cred in the bargain. Even back home, the average person's idea of Germany is quite different from reality. This is true almost everywhere, including here, among Germans about other places. 

 

I think it was definitely a dual intent kind of thing.  Like hey, lets help some refugees and fill our shit jobs vacations at the same time.

 

So it wasn't officially an invitation.  Merkel suspended the Dublin convention, maybe it was just for Syrian refugees, I can't recall, but it was taken as an open invitation by all kinds of people and then the rumours started about all the goodies you'd get.  In 2015 the media interviewed some individuals in the river of people marching through Europe on their way to Germany and I remember them talking to 4 cheerful Moroccan boys who were on their way to Germany due to "Merkel inviting them".  Being asked why they are fleeing Morocco because there's no war, they said it doesn't matter because "Merkel helps everybody".  Other people mentioned having heard that arriving in Germany they would get a house, start up money and a good job.  I even read about a Syrian doctor who was on a work permit in Russia and decided to join the refugee wave and go to Germany instead.  And then they showed up and got a bed in an overfilled gym if they were lucky or maybe just in a tent, some bland food they weren't used to and a rather low amount of pocket money.  So Germany ended up with a lot of disgruntled refugees as well as economic migrants who thought they were owed something and weren't quite ready to take their shit jobs.  Didn't really work out, did it.

 

I read somewhere that where they'd hooked up refugees with employers to start apprenticeships, about 75% of them quit after realizing the low amount of money they would be making.  Some, like one of the pizza delivery drivers I knew, actually wanted to do an apprenticeship but he had assimilated to the German culture too much already so just like a young German, he did not want to apprentice in a trade that would be too physically demanding or where he'd have to work evenings or weekends or travel too far from home.  That kind of limits your options a bit.

 

As for the rumours that keep circulating, I don't know how they start but it's definitely not the first time it happens.  During the Chechenian wars, there were loads of refugees coming to Germany thinking they were getting 5000€ as a startup gift and a parcel of land.  More recently, shortly after the 2015 wave, maybe in 2016-2017, a rumour started, that my home country Iceland were offering 5000€ to any male who would come there and marry a local woman.  Yeah, apparently Iceland, that hasn't been in a war ever, has such a shortage of males that they are ready to pay men to come there to marry their women.  Of course that is BS but loads of people believed it.  I had a couple of people here ask me if it's true.

 

[bramble 9,640]

1 hour ago, Space Cowboy said:

But that is exactly what Germany did, when it suspended the Dublin agreement.

 

Merkel suspended the Dublin agreement only for Syrian asylum seekers due to the war, though loads of non-Syrians  jumped on the bandwaggon, throwing away their non-Syrian passports along the way. Asylum seekers are not even allowed to work, at least for the first three months, and then certain rules apply, which can take years before being eligable in joining the workforce. I gather you were not an asylum seeker so you cannot compare yourself and your Syrian fellow pupils at the Integrationskurs. Germany was not looking for unskilled workers, but for Facharbeiter (still is) of which there is a severe shortage. Plenty of supply of unskilled workers from Eastern EU countries so no shortage there. 

[john g. 37,776]

15 hours ago, balticus said:

 

Where were riots, attacks on police officers, burning of grocery stores and pharmacies justified and who would be justified in doing such things?

 

The people who joined the mob or watched the events of the past two weeks with a certain degree of Schadenfreude may be disappointed when the mob turns on them.  

 

This does not end well.  

Yes, as soon as someone burns your friends‘ or family store down and doesn‘t give a shit- then it‘s time for a rethink if you support such violence.

 

I hope there is nobody on this forum who gets excited by this violence in Stuttgart. And thinks it is in any way justifiable.

[LeonG 14,850]

13 minutes ago, bramble said:

 

Merkel suspended the Dublin agreement only for Syrian asylum seekers due to the war, though loads of non-Syrians  jumped on the bandwaggon, throwing away their non-Syrian passports along the way. Asylum seekers are not even allowed to work, at least for the first three months, and then certain rules apply, which can take years before being eligable in joining the workforce.

 

People who have duldung can get a work permit as long as somebody wants to hire them.  It is up to the ABH where they are registered.  I suppose it's better for Germany to get them off welfare and working if possible.  They don't need a vorrangprüfung but the ABH can refuse if they want to.

[john g. 37,776]

So any corona friends in Stuttgart during the riots? Nobody has mentioned that. All over with the lockdown?

Nice to know.😟

[engelchen 13,041]

38 minutes ago, LeonG said:

 

I think it was definitely a dual intent kind of thing.  Like hey, lets help some refugees and fill our shit jobs vacations at the same time.

 

I think different groups had (and still have) different agendas. Many employers at the time were expecting cheap malleable labour who would be desperate enough to take any job offered. They didn't realise that uneducated foreigners who don't speak German won't solve their labour shortages. On the other the clueless activists want to let in everyone without making any plans on what to do with them once they are here; for example, the Senator in Berlin who wanted to send private planes to Greece to fly in asylum seekers at the end of March (in the middle of a global pandemic) while at the same time other departments were struggling to accommodate the asylum seekers already here.

 

38 minutes ago, LeonG said:

So it wasn't officially an invitation.  Merkel suspended the Dublin convention, maybe it was just for Syrian refugees, I can't recall, but it was taken as an open invitation by all kinds of people and then the rumours started about all the goodies you'd get.

 

The open house at the Innenministerium was actually a few days after she made the announcement and a guy from the Ministry giving a presentation indicated that she took this decision without consulting the bureaucrats responsible.

 

38 minutes ago, LeonG said:

I read somewhere that where they'd hooked up refugees with employers to start apprenticeships, about 75% of them quit after realizing the low amount of money they would be making. 

 

And most of these people who stay in Germany will spend their lives on welfare or working minimum wage jobs.

 

38 minutes ago, LeonG said:

As for the rumours that keep circulating, I don't know how they start but it's definitely not the first time it happens. 

 

I suspect many are started by smugglers. 

 

[gaberlunzi 814]

14 hours ago, El Jeffo said:

For those of you just joining the thread now, this is what embedded racism in Germany looks like. Even if you hold a German passport, you're not a German if you're the "wrong" kind of German.

 

Of course, I'm the real racist for pointing out jeba's racism, but I can live with that.

Cockwoble!

The whole debacle was set up 5 years ago by Frau Merkel and if you people think this riot in Stuttgart is a surprise started on a little dislike, think again. Where this came from there is a lot more coming. Has nothing to do with racism either very much(although it is used for it)

Stuttgart is an industrial town and an ideal place to store troublemakers.

[bramble 9,640]

1 hour ago, LeonG said:

 

People who have duldung can get a work permit as long as somebody wants to hire them.  It is up to the ABH where they are registered.  I suppose it's better for Germany to get them off welfare and working if possible.  They don't need a vorrangprüfung but the ABH can refuse if they want to.

 

Yes, but not every asylum seeker gets a Duldung. It's all a complicated process and at the time the BAMF was overloaded with sorting out who was eligible as asylum seekers and who was not. It was chaos. After a while the German government was even offering refugees from Irak, Iran etc. money to go back from where they came from. Many disillusioned Syrians were going back to Syria of their own free will. Many were sent back to the country of where they first entered the EU (usually Greece). Many didn't stay in Germany and left for Denmark, Sweden, Norway after registration, which was illegal. Many were scamming the system.

 

Here are the rules concerning Arbeitsmarktzugang für Flüchtlinge:  https://www.bmas.de/DE/Themen/Arbeitsmarkt/Infos-fuer-Asylsuchende/arbeitsmarktzugang-asylbewerber-geduldete.html