Police brutality in the USA

534 posts in this topic

44 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

I have to say I don't know what to believe yet. Looks like a lot of conspiracy crap in that thread. Twitter is not a news source for me.

 

It's all Obama's fault anyway.

That's the point, fraufruit. It's why Trump is shouting ANTIFA at the top of his tiny Twitter thumbs before anything is actually known.

 

Meanwhile, a couple of our *ahem* esteemed TT members might take this one to heart:

 

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, this is why we listen to experts.

 

Quote

“We have seen things like white supremacist organizers posting on platforms about coming to Minnesota,” Minnesota Public Safety Commissioner John Harrington said at the same press conference, adding that a potential connection to organized crime is also being investigated.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, El Jeffo said:

That's the point, fraufruit. It's why Trump is shouting ANTIFA at the top of his tiny Twitter thumbs before anything is actually known.

 

Meanwhile, a couple of our *ahem* esteemed TT members might take this one to heart:

 

I agree entirely with Patton Oswalt! I want a better world- one with much less violence, health care for everyone, better education for all young people, a reduction in military spending worldwide, more jaw jaw rather than war war - to start with. That would be much better for EVERYONE.

I suppose that makes me sound dumb. Ok, all for it. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure everybody wants a perfect world where everybody treats everybody with respect - but the world is not like that

 

This thread is supposed to be about the death of a George Floyd, by a policeman - if we followed your argument, we would not need the police either, because everybody would be nice to each other. Although I would like that, I just do not see it happening - that's why we have the police to protect everyone, even if it does not work sometimes.  :angry: Like for George

 

its the same for the military, if they ( who ever they are ) have it, we need it to protect ourselves, if you don't have it then they can just take over your country, there are hundreds of examples thought history of this, sure when you can show me people have changed and everybody is nice, then we can talk about ilimintationg  of the   military

 

The   military / police are a type insurance against being taken advantage of, but they can be used for good and bad purposes.

 

Sure I would like a nice world, I would not need burglar insurance or other similar types of insurance, or insurance agents, if everybody was nice.

 

The US is the biggest defence spender in the world, but they do not have a mass public health system, in Europe we a much reduced  military and better health care , and rely on the US to help us when shit his the fan - is that fair ??

 

How are counties like  Venezuela, going to offer free healthcare, good education for everyone, if they cannot even feed everyone ??? even thou more oil to export than almost any other country in the world ?

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, fraufruit said:

 

I have to say I don't know what to believe yet. Looks like a lot of conspiracy crap in that thread. Twitter is not a news source for me.

 

 

I don’t know yet what to believe either, but there are a disturbingly large number of images and videos showing similar things across the US:  young, white males wearing all black clothing without slogans or logos, with black masks clearly designed for concealment rather than health, and backpacks.  No protest signs, no clear indication of protesting.  Instead, they are throwing projectiles at police, breaking stuff, setting things on fire, and then slipping away.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, yesterday said:

The US is the biggest defence spender in the world, but they do not have a mass public health system, in Europe we a much reduced  military and better health care , and rely on the US to help us when shit his the fan - is that fair ??

 

A big part of their defense budget is just a jobs program. Not only for personnel but also manufacturing. Military-industrial complex.

Europe together has more than enough equipment and personnel to defend itself. And ramping up during a crisis would be easy. You don´t need instant capability, you just need production readiness, and weapon factories in europe are enough.

 

Examples:

  • US has thousands of tanks, despite the tank age being over, due to widespread use of RPGs, attack helicopters, smart missiles, etc
  • The previous US conflicts in the past 25 years never used used even a third of the total personnel.
  • Even the 2nd Gulf war only saw less than 200.000 US troops on the ground, and not all at the same time.
  • Any large scale war (vs China, for example) will simply be decided by nukes.

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

A big part of their defense budget is just a jobs program.

A big part of the money goes on development, which is given to civil manufacturing, which gives the US a lead on other country's

44 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

Not only for personnel but also manufacturing. Military-industrial complex.

Europe together has more than enough equipment and personnel to defend itself.

During the 1980's, it was estimated that the EU forces and the large american forces,  would only slow the Russians, down for a week or so, after that it was Nukes

Now most american forces have left, and europe has not increased the the funds to fill the gap.

44 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

And ramping up during a crisis would be easy.

Ramping up is hard, modern airplanes like the Eurofighter, F 35 take months to build, its very complicated work, Europe is much less well defended than in the 1980's

 

 

You don´t need instant capability, you just need production readiness, and weapon factories in europe are enough.

 

Examples:

  • US has thousands of tanks, despite the tank age being over, due to widespread use of RPGs, attack helicopters, smart missiles, etc

Depends on who you are fighting, modern tanks will keep the crew alive in an RPG attack, but might lead to it becoming inactive.

  • The previous US conflicts in the past 25 years never used used even a third of the total personnel.

That's because the US, want to have the capability to fight 2 major wars at the same time, anywhere in the world, and thats costs a lot of money

  • Even the 2nd Gulf war only saw less than 200.000 US troops on the ground, and not all at the same time.
  • Any large scale war (vs China, for example) will simply be decided by nukes.

More powerful nations normally provide a range of capabilities, the the US can fight in the Gulf with conventional weapons and can offer to take out china/russia with nukes, although that's more of a deterrent threat. Only the UK and France has there own Nukes in Europe, the NATO shield inc USA, is important to Europe.

Its talked about a european defence force, at the moment, for it to be effective on a world stage, like with USA / China/ Russia the EU counties would have to increase the defence spending by a lot, we or we build hospitals/schools and hope the US will come to defend us, if we get attacked.

 

44 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After showing some initial shock conservatives have gone back to their default stance, law and order and uncritical support of the police. (NY Times had a great article about this,  but can't seem to find it). Police for the most part have defaulted to their usual stance, attack first police second. Load of videos showing them attacking peaceful protesters. The usual, pepper spray, batons to the head and a new one, ramming a car into a group. NY mayor for the most part Other than a comment supporting the police, silent. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Space Cowboy said:

 

I don’t know yet what to believe either, but there are a disturbingly large number of images and videos showing similar things across the US:  young, white males wearing all black clothing without slogans or logos, with black masks clearly designed for concealment rather than health, and backpacks.  No protest signs, no clear indication of protesting.  Instead, they are throwing projectiles at police, breaking stuff, setting things on fire, and then slipping away.

Any updates you know of, Space Cowboy, as to who these people are? Are they neo-Nazi supremacists? Are they Antifa? Are they just young nihilists getting their jollies? Or all three? Is the violence appropriate?

 

Just been googling CNN for some opinions about what is going on- found this one first-

 

 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/

 

And CNN’s Van Jones voices his sentiments:

 

 

https://www.cnn.com/

 

And a peaceful demonstrator or two opining:

 

 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/05/31/protester-calls-out-looting-follow-death-of-george-floyd-sot-vpx.cnn

 

 

Elsewhere- the Mayor of Atlanta https://youtu.be/eLCkgqtu1NU

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, john g. said:

Any updates you know of, Space Cowboy, as to who these people are? Are they neo-Nazi supremacists? Are they Antifa? Are they just young nihilists getting their jollies? Or all three? Is the violence appropriate?

 

 

 

It is at this point unclear to me; however, as is typical in the US, the political partisans are claiming that it’s “the other side.”  The Trump administration and their supporters are saying it is Left-wing extremists, and some Democratic leaders are saying it’s Right-wing extremists.

 

If I had to guess, I would guess it’s a mix of all three groups (but not necessarily all three in the same places).

 

Some friends of mine were at a peaceful protest in front of the Justice Center in Portland, Oregon.  They said that as they were leaving, a group of these dudes in full “Black Bloc” regalia showed up, seeming to be well-organized.  Shortly after dark, the Justice Center was torched.

 

 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So Afro-Americans are the violent ( white ) people’s “ useful idiots “ when they ( the Afro-Americans ) stay in their areas in the aftermath of violence  and the police/ National Guard etc crack down and the white nihilists can go home to middle-class suburbia for their dinner at mum and dad’s house?

Am I on to something here?

I dunno.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, john g. said:

So Afro-Americans are the violent ( white ) people’s “ useful idiots “ when they ( the Afro-Americans ) stay in their areas and the police/ National Guard etc crack down and the white nihilists can go home to middle-class suburbia for their dinner at mum and dad’s house?

Am I on to something here?

I dunno.

 

I think you are definitely on to something.  As the Umbrella Man leaves, you can hear him say to the black people videoing him, “Have fun when the cops show up,”

 

There are absolutely opportunistic looters and rioters in the black communities where the protests are taking place, but it is clear that some of the protests have been hijacked by people with a different agenda.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, yesterday said:

Sure everybody wants a perfect world where everybody treats everybody with respect - but the world is not like that

 

This thread is supposed to be about the death of a George Floyd, by a policeman - if we followed your argument, we would not need the police either, because everybody would be nice to each other. Although I would like that, I just do not see it happening - that's why we have the police to protect everyone, even if it does not work sometimes.  :angry: Like for George

 

its the same for the military, if they ( who ever they are ) have it, we need it to protect ourselves, if you don't have it then they can just take over your country, there are hundreds of examples thought history of this, sure when you can show me people have changed and everybody is nice, then we can talk about ilimintationg  of the   military

 

The   military / police are a type insurance against being taken advantage of, but they can be used for good and bad purposes.

 

Sure I would like a nice world, I would not need burglar insurance or other similar types of insurance, or insurance agents, if everybody was nice.

 

The US is the biggest defence spender in the world, but they do not have a mass public health system, in Europe we a much reduced  military and better health care , and rely on the US to help us when shit his the fan - is that fair ??

 

How are counties like  Venezuela, going to offer free healthcare, good education for everyone, if they cannot even feed everyone ??? even thou more oil to export than almost any other country in the world ?

 

I do not disagree with you at all, yesterday, about your basic premise there. With the right politicians worldwide, we can, however , reduce the greatest threats to humanity- nuclear war, famine, nationalism , racism, and a degraded natural environment. Reduce but probably not eliminate. And an educated population would not be useless for that.

There is no reason Venezuela cannot feed all its people, given its size and climate. It is purely political. We have worldwide massive political and financial corruption. Both within and outwith Venezuela.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, yesterday said:

A big part of the money goes on development, which is given to civil manufacturing, which gives the US a lead on other country's

Which lead? Their military power is still given by the numbers, not by technology lead. The F-35 development is an example how it is just a waste of money to feed the military industrial complex. Most defense contractors are not innovating, it's just jobs and money.

By the way, to say something good about Sweden for a change, they have actually very good diesel submarines. Their innovative design is better than anything the americans have done in the past 40 years!

 

4 hours ago, yesterday said:

During the 1980's, it was estimated that the EU forces and the large american forces,  would only slow the Russians, down for a week or so, after that it was Nukes

Well, first this is not 1980's. Russia is no longer what it was and their main power, the tanks, are obsolete. Their navy is kaput. This of course would be settled with nukes. The EU has around 500 to 600 nukes, enough to destroy Russian cities, factories and military targets. There will be no war because they know this. 

Heck, they can't even maintain a war with Chechnya! That was the point where they realized that tanks were obsolete! They go their asses kicked by a small country!

 

4 hours ago, yesterday said:

Now most american forces have left, and europe has not increased the the funds to fill the gap.

Its talked about a european defence force, at the moment, for it to be effective on a world stage, like with USA / China/ Russia the EU counties would have to increase the defence spending by a lot, we or we build hospitals/schools and hope the US will come to defend us, if we get attacked.

We can ask Chechnya for help. :)

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Which lead? Their military power is still given by the numbers, not by technology lead. The F-35 development is an example how it is just a waste of money to feed the military industrial complex. Most defense contractors are not innovating, it's just jobs and money.

The F 35 has about 3500 orders, they are going to make a shit load of money out of that -  European manufactures find it hard to sell the Eurofighter, rafale 

The money they make out of that contract is worth the development costs

 

Quote

By the way, to say something good about Sweden for a change, they have actually very good diesel submarines. Their innovative design is better than anything the americans have done in the past 40 years!

 

Well, first this is not 1980's. Russia is no longer what it was and their main power, the tanks, are obsolete. Their navy is kaput. This of course would be settled with nukes.

I do not want it settled with nukes, because there will be a high number of civilians killed as well

 

The EU has around 500 to 600 nukes

 

Wake up, there is no EU army, its a collection of independent states, each does not have to act as one, like in the US.

read this for a break down   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons

600 ?? where did this come from this page it looks like 250

 

Quote

, enough to destroy Russian cities, factories and military targets. There will be no war because they know this. 

Heck, they can't even maintain a war with Chechnya! That was the point where they realized that tanks were obsolete! They go their asses kicked by a small country!

 

Sure Russia still took parts of the Ukraine 

 

Quote

We can ask Chechnya for help. :)

Chechnya, is so small, I was talking about the conflict between major powers, and keep a defense force to handle Russia - Chechnya, was a problem for Russia because the USSR was failing part at that time.

 

Putin, wants the USSR back !, and that is always a danger

 

Portugal, is also an under spender in NATO at only 1.52 % GDP

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2019_11/20191129_pr-2019-123-en.pdf

its just cheap to join a clud and not pay the due fees

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, yesterday said:

The F 35 has about 3500 orders, they are going to make a shit load of money out of that -  European manufactures find it hard to sell the Eurofighter, rafale 

The money they make out of that contract is worth the development costs

The vast majorities of orders are internal. They (Lockheed) will make a shit load of money, out of the american taxpayer pocket.

 

5 minutes ago, yesterday said:

Portugal, is also an under spender in NATO at only 1.52 % GDP

https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2019_11/20191129_pr-2019-123-en.pdf

its just cheap to join a clud and not pay the due fees

1) Portugal was spending much more than 2% (up to 5%!) before the 2011 crisis. Only recently that dropped

2) We are not a major weapon manufacturer. Germany, France and others spend money, but also earns a lot of money from selling tanks and submarines! The 2% rule should include provisions for weapon manufacturing earnings.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

The vast majorities of orders are internal. They (Lockheed) will make a shit load of money, out of the american taxpayer pocket.

 

No they will make a shit load of money on exports, look at he number countries who have ordered it 

13 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

1) Portugal was spending much more than 2% (up to 5%!) before the 2011 crisis. Only recently that dropped

Nine years ago, maybe they should think about increasing it - to the level of a NATO country, or are they free loaders

13 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

2) We are not a major weapon manufacturer. Germany, France and others spend money, but also earns a lot of money from selling tanks and submarines! The 2% rule should include provisions for weapon manufacturing earnings.

You hit the nail on the head, the other counties do try to sell a lot of military stuff

I think you are right, making money should also be included

13 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now