Speeding ticket in Ireland: pay fine, or go to court?

[arunadasi 7,074]

As this isn't in Germany I'm posting it here.

Last September, my son got a speeding ticket driving my car. But I never received it, because the car was still registered to 

my old address, which was a b&b in the country. I guess they never forwarded it. So I had no idea.

 

Anyway. So the whole thing escalated and I got a summons two weeks ago, to appear at court. I could avoid this by paying a double fine of €160 at the post office.

Paying the fine would get me 3 points; a conviction would get me 5 points.

But I was not the driver so I put my son's details on the payment slip -- he was of course ok to pay the fine and take the points. But it was not accepted because 

it needs to be in my name, as it's my car. So I wrote them a letter explaining.

 

Yesterday they called me and very nicely explained that the only choices I have  now is pay the fine and accept the 3 points on my own licence, or go to court, explain to the judge, and  hope he lets me off. because a ) I wasn't the driver and b ) I never got the first letter. If the judge convicts me I'd get the five points on my own licence -- the first points

I've ever had in my life! and my insurance will go up. 

Both daughter and son think I should risk it. Explain to judge that I am 68 and never had any points and if I'd got the letter it would have been paid immediately (of course by my son).

What do you think? My tendency is to take the easy way out and just accept the 3 points.

[LeonG 14,797]

Take a gamble and go to court.

[McDee 393]

As they used to say on the classic TV programme - Bullseye - gamble. You're going to get points anyway. That's obviously only my opinion. Good luck.

[arunadasi 7,074]

I think I will. Rereading the summons, it says specifically: bla bla boa "... you did drive a mechanically propelled vehicle, reg no xxxxxxxxx bla bla bla".

It's accusing ME specifically of driving the car which is not true. I'll get my son to come with me as a witness or at least to write a witness statement. They cannot convict me of something I did not do.

By the way, even the summons was addressed to the wrong address, as I have a new car which is now registered at the new address. It (the summons) was sent by "signed for" delivery, and since I don't live there any more, they sent the police to the old address! And they were told that I don't live there any more, so the police found out my new address and hand delivered it here.
Thanks for convincing me! I hate court attendances.

[positivethinking 38]

You got a speeding Ticket in Ireland & you live in Germany? Maybe you should read up on EU driving point system transfer ? I once go a Parking ticket in Scotland but as it was a Sunday could not pay it that day and was going home to Ireland. No internet back then to pay. I believe it is forgot about. If you have to travel to Ireland for a court date for a fine of €160 best to just pay it. If you have a Germany driving Licence you would need to check how they could add points to it from Ireland. 

 

Good luck and fight the system !!!   

[RedMidge 6,638]

3 minutes ago, positivethinking said:

You got a speeding Ticket in Ireland & you live in Germany? Maybe you should read up on EU driving point system transfer ? I once go a Parking ticket in Scotland but as it was a Sunday could not pay it that day and was going home to Ireland. No internet back then to pay. I believe it is forgot about. If you have to travel to Ireland for a court date for a fine of €160 best to just pay it. If you have a Germany driving Licence you would need to check how they could add points to it from Ireland. 

 

Good luck and fight the system !!!   

Arunadasi lives in Ireland now!!! ( Long time TT member!)

[arunadasi 7,074]

Yes, I do, I moved here in 2018 -- I can't believe it's two years already!

[alderhill 1,089]

If you have nothing better to do, I would go before the judge as well. Probably be more waiting to be called than sitting in the chambers itself.

 

I am not sure "who was really driving" matters that much. If the car is registered in your name, you're responsible. Was the ticket issued by a camera or a human being? The issuing cop should be able to say if it was a man or a woman driving. If it was a camera, there's no way they can prove it now one way or another, so it's kinda moot. The issue is the delivery to the wrong address so that you never got a chance to pay it (be sure to tell the judge you would have). The fact that you have never had any points ever before might also fly well. Do you have proof of that? Can you order a record from the authorities in Flensburg or any other countries you've lived in?

 

I am not a lawyer, much less an Irish one.

 

Good luck!

[HEM 11,075]

49 minutes ago, alderhill said:

The issuing cop should be able to say if it was a man or a woman driving.

 

I would not bet on that.

 

Some years ago my wife got caught going slightly too fast in our local 30 kmh area.  She was driving my company car.

Some time later a letter demanding 10 Euro came stating that my employer had identified the driver as me!

Not even my own employer (who had a badge photo online) could identify correctly (they probably did not even look).

[arunadasi 7,074]

They do have a photo, but you can't see the driver in it. Or maybe they can...

[arsenal21 400]

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/penalty_points_for_driving_offences.html

 

According to the above you should have filled your son's name to the form but not made payment.

 

But once it gets to court, I think judges don't have much discretion.

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/why-thousands-of-traffic-cases-are-now-in-doubt-1.4067357

[kaffeemitmilch 1,294]

In the US judges (at leas those that preside over traffic court) have all the discretion in the world, and I think this power is based on the same law that gives judges in the UK and Ireland their power. So, I would expect the judge could easily transfer the ticket to the driver, but might ask for proof that you were't driving. I've been to traffic court a couple of times, albeit in the US. For my first ticket in California, I pleased poverty and the judge sentenced me to 16 hours community service (of my choosing) instead of the almost $200 fine. The second time I went to court in New York State, I did it in writing and again pleaded poverty. This time, the fine was only reduced (from around $300 to about $150 I think. Oh, and the third time (again in California), the cop showed up and he and I decided I would plead guilty if he downgraded my ticket I forgot what I paid though, but I did save at least half.

 

So, at least in the US, going to court made sense if one had time.

[arunadasi 7,074]

On 3/28/2020, 4:46:13, arsenal21 said:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/penalty_points_for_driving_offences.html

 

According to the above you should have filled your son's name to the form but not made payment.

 

But once it gets to court, I think judges don't have much discretion.

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/why-thousands-of-traffic-cases-are-now-in-doubt-1.4067357

 

 

Apparently  the first notice, which I never received, had the option to fill in the driver's name, then he would have got the  payment demand a few weeks later, and I would have been out of it. But I never got that.

When I got the final letter I refer to here, there WAS an option to fill in the driver's name but only in the payment section. 

Luckily the "receipt" I got from the PO when the payment was declined gives the reason, "driver number not accepted" (or something like that).It is proof that I did try to pay the increased amount with the correct driver.

 

 

[arunadasi 7,074]

Bumping this thread because I have a result!

First of all, I decided to let it go to court.
The first court date I got was in April, and it was postponed twice due to Covid. So the date was this morning, 10.30.
I'd decided to hire a lawyer. I know a lovely lawyer just five minutes walk from my home, whom I'd met earlier this year in another matter. I went to him just after lockdown opened so I was one of his first clients after lockdown and it was all a bit disorganised -- he really is lovely, which is not a work I've ever used on a German lawyer!!! He practically chatted to me for an hour; looked up Guyana on the computer screen, asked me about it, told me about his experiences in French Africa, gave me advice about where to live in the area, told me a bit about the Troubles, all in this cosy Irish accent. But lots of folk here are like this. Loads of time for chats.

I'd asked him about the speeding charge back then and he said he didn't represent that kind of case. That the judge usually gives lenient sentences to murder cases and draconian sentences to minor traffic stuff, but he'd help. He is actually a prosecutor, but for murder stuff.
He did a power of attorney for me and said it wasn't worth the paper it was written on because anybody could buy a stamp and attach a few ribbons to it.

Anyway.  They did iin fact refer me to a different lawyer who gave me a spot of advice, but when it actually came to court Barry (that's his name) did represent me.

 

What a morning! They made us stand outside in the cold for half an hour before a locked door, only allowing lawyers and staff and Garda in, and then I sat outside the courtroom for a further hour. Barry kept rushing to and fro, told me when I go to the witness stand I should just say I'd moved home, that was all; that I never got the first speeding offence notice. Lots of people, mostly Garda, in face-masks milling about; it all seemed rather chaotic.

 

A bit disappointing as I had prepared a whole case with lots of evidence and arguments.

I was finally called in. It was over in 2 seconds. I had to go to the witness box, sanitise my hands, pick up the Bible and swear on it to tell the truth. They established that I wasn't living at the old address the notice was sent to. A second later they were waving me to go away.
They weren't interested in the fact that I wasn't the driver. Just that I'd moved home before the offence and didn't get the letter.

I went outside and Barry came out and said I was being sent to prison for 14 years but he'd visit me there.

And then he laughed and said the case was dismissed and I should drop the €50 into his office. Which I did. I didn't get a receipt; I didn't last time, either.
So I basically saved myself €110. Nice!

Sorry to ramble on a bit instead of just saying that last bit. I just find the way things are done over here so interesting! The other lawyer never charged me, btw.

 

[catjones 1,658]

11 minutes ago, arunadasi said:

The other lawyer never charged me, btw.

 

Future TT post:  "Lawyer sends me a bill after 2 years.  Do I have to pay it?"

[Metall 14,514]

Yay! *clap clap clap*

All's well that ends well!!

How are you feeling the effects of the upcoming hard Brexit?

Are you all now living on the same side of a future Irish *shudder* border? (No I don't want one, still vividly remember the border guards armed with machine guns board the bus to check passports on the bus to Donegal - long ago and not fun.)

[arunadasi 7,074]

Frankly, not much has changed in this supposedly stricter lockdown. People wear masks in the shops and supermarkets, but that's about it. Lots of non-essential shops are still open, and the streets are not dead as they were in the first lockdown. 
My daughter's about to deliver and after that I'll move in with her for child care. There are no border controls, no sign of any weirdness. She is still on the other side and will be there for the next two years. There are a few signs in Northern Ireland near the border saying No Hard Brexit and such, but people seem to be just waiting and seeing. I'm not aware of any panic; but then, I hardly see anyone except close family and supermarket cashiers. 

[arunadasi 7,074]

17 minutes ago, catjones said:

 

Future TT post:  "Lawyer sends me a bill after 2 years.  Do I have to pay it?"

 

I honestly think  Barry wouldn't follow up, and his secretary -- whom I paid it to -- forgot the last time. Good thing I'm honest, right?

[arunadasi 7,074]

39 minutes ago, catjones said:

 

Future TT post:  "Lawyer sends me a bill after 2 years.  Do I have to pay it?"

 

Also, my accountant never sent me a bill for doing last year's tax calculation (2018). I sent her the docs for 2019 recently and reminded her about the overdue invoice. She said she'll do both together now. I'm not used to this kind of attitude.

[kiplette 8,677]

Well your little picture looks happy and relaxed! 

 

Hope all goes well with the baby.