What can I exepct from Immobilien Verwalter

16 posts in this topic

How do deal with my Immobilien Verwalter? 

 

A few years ago one of the electric sockets stopped working in one of my apartments. Eventually I got an electrician in, who discovered the wire going to the socket had been pierced by drilling from outside.

 

Basically 2 or 3 years ago there were renovations with a scaffolding bolted on for a few months.

One of the scaffolding mounting bolts pierced and electric wire in my apartment causing a socket to not work for a few years. I eventually got an electrician in and he wrote a declaration that the problem was caused by a bolt driven in from the outside.

This went to insurance 4 months ago, they said the contractor should pay. As you can see below the contractor refuses to pay.

 

1: How many companies have bored walls outside my apartment in the last 5 years

2: Isn't up to the insurance in such a case to deal with the subcontractor?

3: Isn't the management company supposed to work for me solving these problems, rather than giving a shitty response like below?

 

I've realised I barely know the company administering my other apartment because they solve everything for me. I'm always resending shit, asking about progress, demanding results with with this company.

 

You notice the scaffolding company states that they have no pictures. I forwarded 20 photos and a report from the electrician to the verwalter. They probably didn't bother forwarding it to the scaffold company

 

What do I want from here? 

Is my view of the world above correct. Somebody is responsible for this, either contractor, or insurance and my Verwalter should have sorted it out.

 
Quote

Sehr geehrter Herr MAM,

anbei die Stellungnahme der Firma Lohse zu Ihrer Kenntnisnahme.

Aus unserer Sicht kann nicht plausible nachgewiesen werden, dass die Firma Lohse Schuld an dem Schaden trägt, daher werden wir den Sachverhalt nicht weiter verfolgen.

Für weitere Rückfragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Alexandra Adkins

Immobilienkauffrau (IHK)
Schweidler GmbH

 

Quote

Sehr geehrte Frau Adkins,

 

zu o.g. Sachverhalt nehmen wir wie folgt Stellung:

 

Der angezeigte Schaden liegt schon einige Jahre zurück und während der ganzen Zeit kam niemals eine Meldung, dass dieser Schaden bestand.

 

Für uns ist es nicht nachzuvollziehen, das dieser Schaden durch uns entstanden ist. Auch zu Sanierungszeiten wies die Fassade schon alte Gerüstankerverdübelungen (Abdeckdeckel) auf. Wie bekommt man nachgewiesen, dass der Schaden durch uns entstanden ist.

 

Ferner steht uns auch kein Bildmaterial der Elektrofirma zur Verfügung.

 

Unabhängig davon weist die mitgesendete Rechnung Arbeiten auf, welche ja überhaupt gar nichts mit der vermeintlichen Schadensbeseitigung zu tun haben. Diese werden aber komplett mit eingefordert.

 

Wir weisen somit den kompletten Schadensanspruch gegen uns, die Firma Lohse GmbH, zurück und betrachten die Forderung als gegenstandslos.

 

Wir bitten Sie um Verständnis.

 

 

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You say it was "a few years ago" - the statute of limitations on repair and renovation work is 2 years.

 

I'm afraid you don't have much of a legal leg to stand on in this case.

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Well that is an answer, even if not one I like.

 

Shouldn't the insurance kick in if the contractor is no longer liable?

 

My reason for the time delay is that a tenant reported it stopped working but didn't complain. Eventually either a tenant complained or I decided to get it fixed. Then the electric company took 1 year to send me the report. Not that my excellent reasons change a stature of limitations of 2 years!

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43 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

Shouldn't the insurance kick in if the contractor is no longer liable?

Sorry but whose insurance should pay? If the warranty period is expired, it's expired.

 

The only thing I can think of is that you challenge their denial, based on the photos of the damage provided by the electrician (which you say you have, but they claim they didn't receive). You'd also have to prove a direct connection between screwing in the scaffolding anchor and severing the wire - assuming the damage occurred because they screwed it in too deep, since they claim to have used the existing anchor points to secure the scaffolding. That would probably require additional investigative work, unless you have pictures of the severed wire in the middle of a borehole.

 

I'm sure you could find a lawyer who would be willing to chase them up, but I'm afraid it would be throwing good money after bad at this point. It's too far in the past to establish a clear causal relationship between the repair work and the damage.

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The entire building has insurance. They recently paid for a Wasserschaden in the same apartment, and are processing Mietausfall.

 

Same insurance company rejected the electrical because it should be paid by the insurance of the contractor who put up the scaffolding.

 

It is clear Loos the scaffolding company is responsible. But if the statute of limitations is 2 years, then is that even relevant?

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I don't know what else I can tell you, MAM. If the warranty period (sorry for calling it "statute of limitations" - force of habit) has expired, you'll have to eat the costs.

 

Just as an aside: be careful not to make too many claims on your Wohngebäudeversicherung, or they'll cancel you (collectively). Our building's insurer canceled us last year, after we made 3 claims in a 4-year period: one roof leak, one leaking balcony, and a tree felled by the big storm two years ago. The new policy we had to get now costs twice as much.

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@El Jeffo Keep telling the truth obviously.

 

Well I would like the money, it's over 1500. And I think the Verwalter are just clerks. They don't solve problems, they just fill out paperwork half halfheartedly.

 

I will follow up on why the electricians report and photos were not sent to Loos. Whether it changes this case or not, I want to know why (because they are lazy) they badly forwarded a well stated claim.

 

But if despite the failing of the Verwalter I have no recourse to get the money then I can stop worrying about it.

 

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But the statute of limitations hasn't run out IMHO, as there has been legally relevant communication within said two years*. I believe the case is still alive.

I believe MAM can and should follow up on Verwalter and electrician.

 

(*Else you could discuss every crime and civil case to death until the respective statue of limitations/Verjaehrungsfrist hits. I don't think the law - even German law - works that way.)

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My first Email on this subject was 26 June 2017 with a tenant

 

The electricians described the problem to me on 17 May 2018

18 Dec 2019 they send a report and loads of pictures, and recommended getting repaid by the house Verwaltung

 

14 Jan 2020 I sent the electricians report on to Verwaltung.

 

I'm not sure when the scaffolding went up. Obviously earlier than June 2017 more than 2 years ago.

 

Here is what the electrician wrote

 

Quote

Des Weiteren empfehle ich Ihnen die Kosten bei der Hausverwaltung  geltend zu machen, da eindeutig

 

der Schaden durch das Setzen des Gerüsthakens verursacht wurde. Dies können Sie an den im

 

Anhang befindlichen Bildern deutlich erkennen. Ich habe zwei Bilder direkt beschriftet. Der Dübel

 

ist durch die Kurzschlüsse dunkel gefärbt. Die Abdrücke des ursprünglichen Verlaufes des Kabelrohres

 

kann man auch deutlich erkennen. Das Rohr, inklusive des Kabels, wurde zentral angebohrt.

 

 

So the damage what done over 2.5 years ago. The electricians report came only a few months ago. The electricians discovered the cause of the problem 1.5 years ago.

 

Where does that leave me?

 

Verwalter, Loos, insurance all think they should not pay, but isn't one of them responsible? And shouldn't my Verwalter know who, and just take care of it?

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21 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

And shouldn't my Verwalter know who, and just take care of it?

 

I agree, he should.

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22 minutes ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

eindeutig der Schaden durch das Setzen des Gerüsthakens verursacht wurde.

 

"The damage was caused by setting the hooks".

That means the company that drilled the holes is reponsible. That should be the scaffolding company!

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Maybe I should ask my other Verwalter?

 

And if they give a good answer, propose they take over at the next Eigentumerversammlung

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As I wrote in the first post

Quote

I've realised I barely know the company administering my other apartment because they solve everything for me

 

@Metall

 

Who do you think is responsible to pay?

We agree the Verwalter is responsible for getting them to pay

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You need to differentiate between Sondereigentumsverwaltung and mere Verwaltung on behalf of the community of owners. Only in case your Verwalter is your Sondereigentumsverwalter could you expect him to really make an effort to sort out a damage that only affects your Sondereigentum.

 

Apart from that AFAIk reaching the statute of limitations isn´t prevented by merely sending an email but by actually talking it to court. On the other hand the guarantee can be up to 5 years, depending of what kind of work you´re talking about.

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Gewährleistungsfrist: Zwei oder fünf Jahre?

Wie lange die Gewährleistung von Handwerkern gilt, hängt davon ab, welche Arbeiten sie verrichtet haben. Für die Errichtung eines Bauwerks oder unmittelbar damit zusammenhängende Arbeiten (zum Beispiel den Einbau einer Zentralheizung oder einer Einbauküche) beträgt die Gewährleistungsfrist fünf Jahre. Bei Reparaturen und kleineren Umbauarbeiten endet die Gewährleistungspflicht des Handwerkers dagegen schon nach zwei Jahren. Grundlage für diese Fristen ist § 634a Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch (BGB). Die Frist beginnt dabei grundsätzlich mit der Abnahme.

Source: https://www.advocard.de/streitlotse/internet-und-konsum/verbraucherrecht/gewaehrleistung-von-handwerkern-was-sie-wissen-sollten/

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5 hours ago, MadAxeMurderer said:

Who do you think is responsible to pay?

We agree the Verwalter is responsible for getting them to pay

 

 

 

Like I said, the scaffolding company that drilled the holes that did the damage.

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